(12-17-2020, 06:58 AM)DrYak Wrote: I love such setups (trackpoint keyboard with real clicky buttons under the space bar) and tend to use the clicky buttons even when using the trackpad. I wish I could get a laptop with a good trackpoint and real clicky buttons, like my old thinkpad. And I'd also use the clicky buttons with the touchpad. They're faster and easier to reach.
I don't understand the desire to have the buttons on the bottom of the touchpad. You're using the keyboard. You're using the touchpad. What's easier to reach, something between the keyboard and touchpad, or something on the very bottom of the touchpad, as far as possible from the keyboard?
Well, I'd say that "modern" touchpads cater to the majority of people, which do not use keyboards too much. For those people, it is more comfortable to have buttons at the lower edge of the touchpad, so they can be clicked using a thumb of the same hand or the fingers of the other hand.
(12-17-2020, 02:12 PM)dsimic Wrote: Well, I'd say that "modern" touchpads cater to the majority of people, which do not use keyboards too much.
Though it's a bit weird as the Pinebook Pro, at least for now (until the regional online shops with customer support open), is geared toward more geeks/hacker/devs community and those tend to be more text-mode and keyboard-heavy leaning...
(12-14-2020, 02:16 PM)Arwen Wrote: -Modern storage isn't that expensive. Pine64 could get rid of emmc for SSD without much added expense, if at all. There are many low end laptops out there using SSD. Not saying the PBP needs to have a 500 GB Samsung Evo 980 Pro. Plenty of smaller off brand drives out there in the $20-30 range. Being limited to 64 GB storage and having to jump through hoops with uncertain results to upgrade to SSD storage is a needless headache. I lucked out upgrading my storage with no issues, other users haven't been so lucky. All the threads I've read on this forum indicate that storage on the PBP is a weak point if you want to upgrade and only having 64 GB can be insufficient depending on what you want to do with your PBP.
- I'd have two type C connectors (one for power) on the left side, and a USB type A on the right side along with HDMI and microSD slot. Just get rid of USB 2.0 all together since 3.0 is backward compatible. Why would you need a hub when you can just deliver enough power to the ports?
- I hope they get the new boot menu ironed out and the PBP can eventually boot from any connected bootable device. I realize the PBP is a hobbyist/enthusiast device, but having all these work arounds and caveats for what device you can boot from holds the PBP back in my opinion.
@mtndew, some comments.
M.2 slot for SSD in lieu of EEMC.
There is nothing stopping you from removing the eMMC and using only NVMe in the M.2 slot. It does require installing U-Boot in the SPI flash. (Or using SDXC as initial boot.)
If you are asking about build to order, (leave off eMMC and add at factory M.2 / NVMe slot), Pine64 can't do that and keep the price down.
Two USB 3.0 and replace the charging port with another USB type C
If I remember correctly, the RK3399 only has 2 USB 3 ports. We have one as a Type A connector and the other is the Type C connector. Adding a 3rd would require both adding a USB 3.0 hub + power to run the hub
On the subject of replacing the charging port with a USB Type C, perhaps. We need to get the charging circuit fixed, so that we can use more external power. Others have identified this as a weak point too.
Change firmware to include a boot menu if super key is pressed at start up and include options for booting from USB drive or network
Their is work in U-Boot to including selecting boot device, (or kernel), and booting from USB drives or network. I've personally tested it, (but not the USB drive or network), it's nice. Not yet ready for prime time, as they say. It can be installed in SPI flash, (so no eMMC required). Or installed in eMMC or SDXC. Note that it can't be installed in NVMe or USB drive, as that is a limitation of the RK3399 SoC. (So Pine64 included a SPI flash for people not wanting an eMMC or SDXC.)
@ mtndew
For the removal of eMMC in favor of a M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD, you do realize that the RK3399 SoC has a built in eMMC interface?
Very little external logic needed. Yes, their is board space & connector required. But, tiny compared to choices this gives users. (You can buy a 128GB eMMC today. And Samsung makes 256GB eMMC chips.)
You mention cheap SSDs. Let us be clear, the RK3399 SoC does not include SATA. So any storage has to be something supported by the SoC. Or converted from PCIe.
Keep in mind if their were 2 x USB Type C, (one purely for power), it might be confusing for users. Some people would want a docking station that supplies power in addition to the video, which means the USB Type C for power only is useless.
What I meant for USB 3.x hub, is that the RK3399 SoC has only 2 USB 3.x ports, (if I understand it correctly). So in order to have 2 x USB Type C AND USB Type A all at USB 3.x speeds, you have to have an internal USB 3.x hub.
All that said, in 1 to 2 years a newer SoC could be selected that has more flexible storage and USB options. Until then, any 2.2 revision board is "stuck" with the RK3399 SoC.
This is one of the problems associated with ARM devices. Intel & AMD both make tablet and laptop focused CPUs & SoCs. Their are ZERO focused ARM laptop processors, today. We have ones that are very close and usable as laptop processors. But, their original design was for media players, IoT, (Internet of Things), etc... Even the newer RK3588 is not quite laptop focused, (dual Gigabit Ethernet in a laptop???).
--
Arwen Evenstar
Princess of Rivendale
(12-21-2020, 10:45 AM)Arwen Wrote: Even the newer RK3588 is not quite laptop focused, (dual Gigabit Ethernet in a laptop???).
Let's hope that a RK3588-based laptop would get at least one usable Gigabit Ethernet interface. 
(12-19-2020, 06:26 AM)DrYak Wrote: (12-17-2020, 02:12 PM)dsimic Wrote: Well, I'd say that "modern" touchpads cater to the majority of people, which do not use keyboards too much.
Though it's a bit weird as the Pinebook Pro, at least for now (until the regional online shops with customer support open), is geared toward more geeks/hacker/devs community and those tend to be more text-mode and keyboard-heavy leaning...
It seems to me that Pine64 hasn't designed and engineered the case, the keyboard and the touchpad for PineBook Pro entirely from scratch. Most probably, already existing designs have been only slightly tweaked to fit PineBook Pro, which gave us a "modern" touchpad and a "modern" keyboard.
However, engineering the keyboard from scratch, for example, would surely make the PineBook Pro more expensive.
(12-21-2020, 10:45 AM)Arwen Wrote: ...
This is one of the problems associated with ARM devices. Intel & AMD both make tablet and laptop focused CPUs & SoCs. Their are ZERO focused ARM laptop processors, today. We have ones that are very close and usable as laptop processors. But, their original design was for media players, IoT, (Internet of Things), etc... Even the newer RK3588 is not quite laptop focused, (dual Gigabit Ethernet in a laptop???).
I think that's a bit exaggerated. ARM has been used in Chromebooks for a couple of years and recently even in Windows laptops. I don't know if Google ever did any optimizations to the RK3399 to call it the OP1, but the Samsung Chromebook Plus with that chip is perfectly usable as a laptop. If only the Pinebook Pro was as smooth as the Samsung Chromebook Plus, it would have been a difference between night and day. I can even connect the the Samsung Chromebook Plus to my 4K TV and play 4K YouTube videos.
Just because a SoC can also be used for a SBC, doesn't mean that it isn't laptop focused. This idea that you should use a certain chip only for a specific device is long gone.
Laptop chips end up in mini PCs and (low power) desktop class chips end up in laptops. And I think that's also where Apple is heading: one chip to rule them all!
@ jiyong Perhaps you are right.
I do think a laptop focused ARM processor would work better and use less power than a processor not specifically designed for laptops.
For example, the electrical interface used for the WiFi chip is less than ideal. It limits the speed of the WiFi. Yet their are few other interfaces available. Same with the Bluetooth, (which is a separate interface, though the same chip as WiFi). This limits the WiFi chips that can be used.
--
Arwen Evenstar
Princess of Rivendale
Please, keep in mind that the hypothetical laptop-oriented ARM SoC would also need to have its design as open as possible. Combining those two traits would be a really long shot for the foreseeable future.
Quite frankly, we should all be very happy that the PineBook Pro, with its open design, exists at all. If the revision 2.2 eventually gets released, we should be even happier.
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