Lately Kickstarter has moved from a nice altruistic place where nice people back interesting projects created by nice people, into an odd place where not particularly nice people, or sometimes just incompetent people, feel that they can avoid any responsibility to the nice people putting up the money by simply saying "Forget it, Jake...it's Kickstarter"
And indeed that's true - - Kickstarter is a weird system where you agree up front that the person taking your money can give you nothing and that's just too bad.
What I'm AFRAID is going to happen...or rather what I'm afraid will someday NEED to happen, is for some form of regulation or oversight over crowdsourcing...the last thing I want is more/bigger government, but the more KS projects turn up to provide nothing, or really inferior products or services, the more likely this becomes.
06-19-2016, 08:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2016, 08:56 PM by MarkHaysHarris777.)
@ phloog... THAT is NOT nothing !
... in fact that pic is the quintessential definition of something, something pretty special ! That is a fully functional super computer on an index card running ubuntu gnu+linux communicating via wifi and displaying beautifully on an 1080p60 hdmi LG display utilizing a logitech usb receiver /
This project is successful, and its as real as it gets; contrary-wise to all of your KS and Pine64 team bashing. Give it a rest gentlemen... your whining is bogus. There are just too many of these boards running in the wild... who do you think you're kidding (only yourselves).
I'm not sure why the moderators have not shut you down yet; perhaps they are in fact trying to help you as best they can??
Go look at my pic above (does that look like a sham to you, or DOA, or not quality anytning? )
marcus
06-20-2016, 12:54 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016, 12:56 AM by bonterra.)
@ MarkHaysHarris777: Good for you! Now that you've posted more or less the same fanboy text in four or five different threads, how about you listen to those of us who haven't received our boards and try to understand why we're frustrated? I think we can all agree that the boards do exist but that's not what the fuzz is about, is it?
A few thousand people haven't received their boards yet, the crew have broken a number of promises and addons have been delayed again and again. I know you hit bumps along the road in projects like these but come on, you have to agree that this could have been handled in a better way, at least information-wise? Kickstarter updates are few and far between, some information has not been included but has instead been found in random forum threads, sometimes posted by random users who were fortunate to receive a reply to their email.
On May 27th almost 31000 packages had been sent (30855 according to the KS update sent that day) and another 942 non-responders. That leaves 36781-30855-942=4984 backers who hadn't received a shipping notice. According to the same KS update they were "dispatch[ing] hundreds of shipments" every day so you'd think they'd be done by now, 24 days later. Obviously they aren't as people are repeatedly asking for TL Lim's help to find their shipments?
The promise that no pre-orders would ship before all KS orders were filled turned out to be bull****. I can only think of one reason: unlike KS backers, shop customers have rights. "Never mind the backers who funded our project, let's just not get sued".
Even if my order arrives this week (it's in customs right now), it's three months late and still not complete as the z-wave module is not ready yet. In the last KS update the crew claimed it would be ready in two weeks but since the Pine team motto seems to be "silence is golden", I have no clue as to how they're doing.
Backer #16374 - KS funded January 23rd 2016 - Backerkit funded on March 10th 2016 - BOARD RECEIVED ON JUNE 29th - BACKERKIT ORDER FULFILLED ON SEPT 8th
@MarkHayHarris: people are bashing, yes, but they are bashing for different reasons and in different directions.
What people want is a plug and play experience. They get the board out of the box, plug in their peripherals, hdmi cable and power supply and want the thing to boot straight off. This is normal to expect this.
If that doesn't happen, some will try to get to the bottom of why it didn't happen. In this pursuit of a fix, some will continue until they have success, some will have a few goes at it before giving up, and others won't even try. This is also normal.
The bashing in this particular thread relates (mainly) to people not receiving their Pines in a timely manner. It is true, the project is quite far behind its proposed schedule and shop orders have started going out in some instances, perhaps for the very reason that @ bonterra states, to avoid possible legal action. Similar legal action for not receiving goods as it relates to kickstarter backers is much more of a grey area than an online shop purchase.
So yes, kickstarter has become something of a pre-order system and is losing its way a little. Yes, this kickstarter is late to deliver and I'm sure Pine64 Inc want all boards and accessories shipped out as soon as possible. And yes, it is frustrating paying money for something and having the uncertainty of not knowing when it will arrive.
I was more concerned about how KS has shifted. Yes, within the minds of BACKERS it's become more like pre-order, but also in the minds of PROJECT MANAGERS it has become seemingly a neat space where failure is no big deal because "hey, read the KS rules"
I personally understand that KS was never meant to be a pre-order system, but if they want to return to that maybe CAP backer amounts at $10. Because you can remind people of the noble goals and the explicit rules, but when someone asks for a substantial amount - - $30? $50? $400??! - - - you absolutely cannot reasonably expect that people all see this as a noble 'gift' to a project.
Again, I get the intent, the implied intent, and the EXPLICIT guidelines, but if you tell me you want to deliver X and if I give you $Y you will send me this specific thing....
... You want a dollar from me to get something started...no problem - here's the buck and I expect nothing.
(06-20-2016, 07:59 AM)phloog Wrote: Again, I get the intent, the implied intent, and the EXPLICIT guidelines, but if you tell me you want to deliver X and if I give you $Y you will send me this specific thing....
... You want a dollar from me to get something started...no problem - here's the buck and I expect nothing.
Good morning ! ... I fall into this somewhere @ the middle; but I lean towards 'an investment' and I'm less about needing to control that $dollar (whatever the amount) in terms of micro management or pounding on someone's door expecting detailed accountability. On the other hand I don't want to be scammed any more than someone else! My expectation is that people on KS will tell the truth, have honest objectives, and attempt to deliver on their promises. If I were to be critical the most I might say is that some KS projects have had some glitches... but, for the most part and I do include the PineA64 here, things are working fairly well, actually.
So, for me, if I send you the buck I am expecting a return on investment but I'm not looking at the return or accountability the same as I would from an order to MCM Element14, forinstance. I really want to help the KS project get off the ground and if there's a good return, then great ! If there are glitches, I tend to be very understanding 'n so on...
06-22-2016, 04:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2016, 04:49 PM by RichT.)
Since everyone seems to be so desperate to point out that funding on Kickstarter is not the same as ordering from an online store, let's see what Kickstarter's own guidelines have to say about what Pine's obligations are here ( https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use):
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life [...] If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
• they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
• they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
• they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
• they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
• they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
I've highlighted the bits I find most relevant.
Backer #29,562 - KS funded 23 Jan 2016 - Backerkit funded 10 Mar 2016
STATUS - RECEIVED - STILL WAITING FOR MY TRACKING NUMBER THOUGH... 
(06-22-2016, 04:47 PM)RichT Wrote: Since everyone seems to be so desperate to point out that funding on Kickstarter is not the same as ordering from an online store, let's see what Kickstarter's own guidelines have to say about what Pine's obligations are here (https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use):
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
[i]Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life [...] If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement.
I've highlighted the bits I find most relevant.
Hang on...let me stop you right there, as the rest is pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, they ARE STILL working on completing the project and fulfilling the rewards. Therefore, they are still holding up their end of the agreement. So they are a bit passed the ESTIMATED delivery dates...that does not mean it is a failed project.
(06-22-2016, 06:22 PM)Inuyasha Wrote: (06-22-2016, 04:47 PM)RichT Wrote: Since everyone seems to be so desperate to point out that funding on Kickstarter is not the same as ordering from an online store, let's see what Kickstarter's own guidelines have to say about what Pine's obligations are here (https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use):
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
[i]Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life [...] If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement.
I've highlighted the bits I find most relevant.
Hang on...let me stop you right there, as the rest is pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, they ARE STILL working on completing the project and fulfilling the rewards. Therefore, they are still holding up their end of the agreement. So they are a bit passed the ESTIMATED delivery dates...that does not mean it is a failed project.
Yeah, this project is very far from being a failure, it is, in fact, doing pretty well compared to a lot of Kickstarters. I have backed many and almost all of them are late. I never believe the delivery estimates on a Kickstarter. I have waited three years on at least one kickstarter and another is going on 4 years and I dont think it is going to deliver.
Have patience everyone, the boards are shipping out and getting into the hands of backers. They could have waited until everything was ready to ship at once but decided in many cases to split the shipments at a greater cost to them so people would have their boards earlier. There have been some hiccups in shipping but they are being dealt with and people that were affected by the May 27th shipping snafu are getting their boards. I am sure, as a young company, they are swamped right now and doing the best they can.
Have patience.
I wonder what made them hold the last batch, its been a month since they announced that they will be releasing the last batch by next week
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