next pinephone model, maybe "pinephone handheld".

[zetabeta]

next pinephone model, maybe "pinephone handheld".

this is a discussion to start possible features of next pinephone. i don't think there is going to be new model any time soon, maybe next year (2024) as earliest. i put my proposed features list here.

absolute priority:
generic bootloader and partitioning, which can be controlled. no fastboot, no android partitioning.

high priority:
bigger battery.

medium priority:
one battery integrated into one unit. edit: no two batteries, but battery is replaceable.
one unit with integrated keyboard, or dual screen.
horizontal flip.
full hd screen.
faster modem chip.
3.5mm audio jack.
usb port works if dual piece.
cpu, ram and gpu comparable to pp pro.

low priority:
nr5g modem chip.
all the keys should be inside the device, not accessible when (flip is) closed.
easy access to memory card slot.
possible gpio pins, these could be in difficult place.

this is a picture of keyboard accessory and pinephone. i would propose something little more bulkier and integrated. edit: battery and unit as one, but parts replaceable.

[alaraajavamma]

Great topic.

How I see this:
Pinephone is working decent enough to be used as daily driver but it is so slow that it is actually more "dummy phone" than smartphone. You can technically do all sort of complicated things with it but do you want to?

Pinephone Pro is still a work in progress, but assuming it can be made to work as a phone it would be decent enough to use as a smartphone. Battery life would be biggest challenge and afaik it is nearly impossible to improve enough so it can be used as smartphone when on the road.

Considering that a tremendous amount of work has been done on both models I wouldn't want to see any more brand new faster and shinier devices except in a completely exceptional situation.
For me perfect next Pinephone would be Pinephone Pro (if community can make it work as a phone) with a giant battery - and seriously giant something like 20 000mah.
Then we have decent device with decent battery life and it can seriously compete with ios and android in daily use.
And when more people can daily drive it because the software is mature enough and battery life is long enough we might get a genuinely bigger crowd interested - and some of them will contribute to community.

And after that we can jump to next gen. Pinephone but personally I don't want to rush there, because then we would have to wait two years again for the phone to be "almost good".

[Kevin Kofler]

one battery integrated into one unit.

"integrated" as in "not replaceable"? That would be a step backwards! A replaceable battery (as in the current PinePhone and PinePhone Pro) is a must for an easily serviceable and sustainable device.

---

As for phone vs. handheld, I think the current solution with the optional keyboard accessory is better than a non-removable keyboard.

[zetabeta]

one battery integrated into one unit.

"integrated" as in "not replaceable"? That would be a step backwards! A replaceable battery (as in the current PinePhone and PinePhone Pro) is a must for an easily serviceable and sustainable device.

i need to clarify. i meant as one unit and one battery. of course some parts are replaceable, like battery. this two battery compromise in keyboard case bundle is not optimal.

---

... with a giant battery - and seriously giant something like 20 000mah. ...

20 000 mAh!, i measured with my inaccurate weight scale. current keyboard case ~250 g and phone ~200g. together ~450g. it is already quite heavy. so, 20000mAh probably weighs 1000g. i think too much.

[WhiteHexagon]

I believe the thing that made the Raspberry Pi successful was a combination of low price and hardware stability via their 'Obsolescence Statement'. The combination allows time for discovery, experimentation, and optimisation by the development community.

I am new to this community, but the PP seems like a very decent bit of hardware already! but coming from Android/iOS development world, it looks like the software stack needs a lot of work for it to become a daily driver. So in my opinion, the next PP shouldn't be even the PPP, but instead a finished/consumer ready PP. Assuming that is even a goal of the community, because having an open platform is also a commendable goal in itself.

[Kevin Kofler]

I would like to see more reliable software as well (though IMHO it is already much better than it was 2 years ago when I got my first PinePhone), and while we are at it also more reliable hardware (my first PinePhone had its USB circuitry fail, taking the modem offline, and also preventing data transfers over USB with JumpDrive, after not even 2 years).

The issue is that improving the software reliability would require Pine64 to invest a lot more in software than it does now, and that that would significantly drive up the price of the hardware, to the point that it would no longer be affordable to many of us. Purism is investing quite a bit in the software for its Librem 5, which is work we also benefit from, but the result is that the Librem 5 is several times more expensive than the PinePhone or the PinePhone Pro. And Purism's investments are basically what brought us the current Phosh, and also work on software like ModemManager than Plasma Mobile uses as well. So if you want something more production-ready than that, it would need an even higher investment and hence an even higher unit price. Are you prepared to pay $2000-$3000 for a smartphone? And that might not even be sufficient, given that at that price, whatever company tries that is going to sell a lot fewer units than Pine64 does now.

Neither do we have a company with deep pockets such as Google funding the software development, nor are hardware manufacturers instantly going to sell volumes as large as Samsung etc. that would allow big investments in software without driving the unit price up too much.

[alaraajavamma]

Again this is great topic, I love it

As we speak I have more stable PP than ever and for me this is really really close to be as reliable as competitors at the moment.
I have uptime over two weeks without any modem dropdowns or other big freezes.
So the software maturity in some terms is actual quite good with PP. PP battery life is also good enough and can compete with some cheap android phones.

I have also Pinephone Pro with 24/7 connection to external display and charger and no suspend option.
And it is also really reliable - maybe month without issues (but at the moment if you use suspend then there will be issues)

But this conversation is most likely more app/ui oriented so my thoughts about that.
To get more people excited I think there are a few battles where to focus:

It just works (decent enough)
People expect that basic things just work out of the box. And as I claim the biggest drawback in PP/PPP is battery life. Easy fix would be to increase battery size.

User experience in mobile
Ubuntu Touch is only OS who have opportunity to fight against Apple or Android in that out of the box (it is not stable enough with PP/PPP but still that is my statement) - all other options are niche and actual wins are taken elsewhere
The evolution in this has been huge and I personally love Phosh at the moment but my not so tech orientated wife hates it.

User experience with external display
Best winning argument for PPP (and little bit for PP) - there are no actual competition for this. With Phosh this is usable now.

Familiar apps
Some of them are never going to happen but at least we are pretty damn close on familiar apps as "linux desktop users"
This is also one killer feature and huge benefit to linux mobile.

Free as in freedom
The opportunity to do absolutely whatever you want - it's yours

Inside this community we might want some new features (I want them too) but to be honest we actually need bigger community behind us.
Most of the world have never ever heard about Pine64, PP, PPP or linux mobile never ever before.
I really don't care how many people use same device as I but would love to see linux mobile devices also in the future.
Another topic is it worth growing this how big because all of this will disappear when this becomes too popular xD

[diederik]

the biggest drawback in PP/PPP is battery life. Easy fix would be to increase battery size.

I think the better fix would be a smaller production process.
The Quartz64 devices use a 22 nm process and that already runs MUCH cooler then the Rock64.
I don't know at what process the PPP is made, but likely (much?) higher.
For comparison: a Samsung Galaxy S7 (2016) is made on a 14nm process and recent (high-end) phones are made on (less then) half of that.

Smaller production processes mean higher energy efficiency and lower temperatures, which in turn means the CPUs don't have to get throttled as much.

[zetabeta]

I think the better fix would be a smaller production process.
The Quartz64 devices use a 22 nm process and that already runs MUCH cooler then the Rock64.
I don't know at what process the PPP is made, but likely (much?) higher.
For comparison: a Samsung Galaxy S7 (2016) is made on a 14nm process and recent (high-end) phones are made on (less then) half of that.

Smaller production processes mean higher energy efficiency and lower temperatures, which in turn means the CPUs don't have to get throttled as much.

pp pro is probably 28nm, according to wikipedia. 22nm sounds good idea though.