Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China

[bcnaz]

1) Most news is controlled by a very few extreme elitist, just a fact, that is everywhere not one country.
2) Yes there are problems in China, ( but also in other countries )
3) China does have one of the fastest growing middle classes in the world, so they are improving.

[murak]

If Pine64 where to consider moving parts of production to a more democratic country I would support it. Pine64 has always been open and explained why things happen etc, so if they tell me my next pinephone motherboard is 50% more expensive because they choose to manufacture it at a different factory I would gladly pay it.

[daniel]

If Pine64 where to consider moving parts of production to a more democratic country I would support it. Pine64 has always been open and explained why things happen etc, so if they tell me my next pinephone motherboard is 50% more expensive because they choose to manufacture it at a different factory I would gladly pay it.

I wonder if there any phone completely build in a democratic country. IF anyone knows let us know.

I do not think so, because it wouldn't be 50% more expensive, probably 10-20 times more expensive.

Sadly, the abuse on Chinese, Indian, etc workers is so disproportioned that it would be very difficult to compete.

I would gladly pay 50, 100%, or 200% more for a "democratic PinePhone"... but as I said before,  probably it would be much more than that...

[guenther]

I wonder if there any phone completely build in a democratic country. IF anyone knows let us know.

Well, it's not a phone, but what about Raspberry Pi in this viewpoint?

Without going too deep into the discussion, I would also prefer a device open source and free of chinese parts. It's not because of the people, but because of the chinese government.
And yes, everything I know about that is from media, what is not a good condition to judge something!

[motox6]

I have worked in Beijing and the US.

For me it comes to do freedom.

Are the workers in China free to contract their labor or are they slaves/serfs/subjects? Some are, some aren't. So yes and no. I would say some are subjects, and some are slaves. It really depends on how productive you are from the state's point of view.

Are the workers in US free to contract their labor or are they slaves/serfs/subjects? In the US workers are not free to contract their labor as they see fit. So they are at least subjects.

For example, minimum wage laws interfere with the US citizen's right to contract their labor as they see fit. And in fact there are many thousands of other regulations restricting the US citizen, such as environmental regulations. All these regulations that are imposed on the US worker lead to them being less competitive in the world labor market.

What this also means is that the "ownership" of the US citizen's labor belongs to the state and thus the US citizen is actually a serf who begs the government for permission to work and it is government which determines the terms under which they can work.

Lastly, in the late 1800s the US Supreme Court ruled that taxes on labor are slavery. Thus, the 13th amendment not withstanding, we can see that US citizens are slaves. And if you accept the supreme court's view some Chinese citizens are slaves, though the tax policy in China changes quite often and usually the regular worker pays very little income tax, but it varies.

[daniel]

You have other sources such as Amnesty International, for example

[murak]

Just to ad to the discussion:

Sony Xperia 1 II (Japan)
Samsung Galaxy Note 10/10 Plus (South Korea)
Moto G Stylus (India)
ASUS ROG Phone II (Taiwan)

Source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/10-best-sm...-in-china/

What it ads to the total cost of the phones I don´t know. Fairphone is assembled at a factory in China, owned by a Taiwan company, and they work together to make the situation better for the workers.

I also know for a fact that Nokia N9 where made in eastern Europe (a long time ago..)

[daniel]

I have worked in Beijing and the US.

For me it comes to do freedom.

Are the workers in China free to contract their labor or are they slaves/serfs/subjects?  Some are, some aren't.  So yes and no.  I would say some are subjects, and some are slaves.  It really depends on how productive you are from the state's point of view.

Are the workers in US free to contract their labor or are they slaves/serfs/subjects?  In the US workers are not free to contract their labor as they see fit.  So they are at least subjects. 

For example, minimum wage laws interfere with the US citizen's right to contract their labor as they see fit.  And in fact there are many thousands of other regulations restricting the US citizen, such as environmental regulations.  All these regulations that are imposed on the US worker lead to them being less competitive in the world labor market.

What this also means is that the "ownership" of the US citizen's labor belongs to the state and thus the US citizen is actually a serf who begs the government for permission to work and it is government which determines the terms under which they can work.

Lastly, in the late 1800s the US Supreme Court ruled that taxes on labor are slavery.  Thus, the 13th amendment not withstanding, we can see that US citizens are slaves.  And if you accept the supreme court's view some Chinese citizens are slaves, though the tax policy in China changes quite often and usually the regular worker pays very little income tax, but it varies.

This is actually the opposite. The US or Europe or any other part in the democratic world you need a government to set some rules to protect workers, the environment,  rights... you are not begging the government, it is a social agreement. You pay taxes they will provide education, health, control on the quality of products, protection, etc

That is what capitalism doesn't respect. If Money is the boss, you can make your workers work 20h for almost nothing, 7 days a week, you can produce food containing carcinogens, factories dumping contaminants to air or water, remove education, remove health system, even arresting based on ideology.  This is not freedom, this is allowing slavery. To protect human rights you need a democratic government. If they do a bad job, you get another one.

[KC9UDX]

You can only make workers do what they're willing to do. When that fails, you're not talking free-market anymore: there's some kind of collusion happening, usually in the form of government. And a true free-market (I'm not going to use the term capitalism) is the best way to stop "food containing carcinogens, factories dumping contaminants to air or water, remove education, remove health system, even arresting based on ideology". Time and time again it can be shown that government controls get us exactly the opposite. Incidentally, with the exception on the last one, China of all places is really, really good at achieving your other goals. They are very proud of this.

I don't know what part of the world you live in, but where I am, you pay taxes or really bad things happen. I don't pay taxes and get some great benefits, in fact right now more than ever, it's obvious that I'm not getting "education, health, control on the quality of products, protection" from my taxes, I'm getting bureaucratic tyranny.

It's a nice theory that you can just replace your government every time it goes bad. But how often does this happen? And how often do you end up with better government? Everyone in the world puts up with their government, somehow or other.

I don't think China has a better government than other places. I wouldn't like to live in China for the government. But I don't. And what China does is really none of my business. This is the Crux of the issue. The sentiment pervading the "most civilised" cultures these days is that *I* have to provide for the "safety and security" of everyone else. No, I'd rather worry about me and my own. The Chinese people aren't asking me for help, nor do they need to. They're just add capable of revolution as anyone else. "Human rights" are not the reason I don't buy "made in China". I don't buy "made in China" because it is the intent of the Chinese government to bring down everyone else's economy whilst bringing theirs up. I don't buy "made in China" because I'd like to support the last vestiges of capitalism.

I yoosta think that Switzerland had the best form of government. But it has shown that the populace these days is incapable of ruling: The people have too many fantastical ideals, not just in Switzerland. The best government is the smallest one. And a true democracy is the largest one.

[natasha]

You can only make workers do what they're willing to do.  When that fails, you're not talking free-market anymore: there's some kind of collusion happening, usually in the form of government.  And a true free-market (I'm not going to use the term capitalism) is the best way to stop "food containing carcinogens, factories dumping contaminants to air or water, remove education, remove health system, even arresting based on ideology".  Time and time again it can be shown that government controls get us exactly the opposite.  Incidentally, with the exception on the last one, China of all places is really, really good at achieving your other goals.  They are very proud of this.

I don't know what part of the world you live in, but where I am, you pay taxes or really bad things happen.  I don't pay taxes and get some great benefits, in fact right now more than ever, it's obvious that I'm not getting "education, health, control on the quality of products, protection"  from my taxes, I'm getting bureaucratic tyranny.

It's a nice theory that you can just replace your government every time it goes bad.  But how often does this happen?  And how often do you end up with better government?  Everyone in the world puts up with their government, somehow or other.

I don't think China has a better government than other places.  I wouldn't like to live in China for the government.  But I don't.  And what China does is really none of my business.  This is the Crux of the issue.  The sentiment pervading the "most civilised" cultures these days is that *I* have to provide for the "safety and security" of everyone else.  No, I'd rather worry about me and my own.  The Chinese people aren't asking me for help, nor do they need to.  They're just add capable of revolution as anyone else.  "Human rights" are not the reason I don't buy "made in China".  I don't buy "made in China" because it is the intent of the Chinese government to bring down everyone else's economy whilst bringing theirs up.  I don't buy "made in China" because I'd like to support the last vestiges of capitalism.

I yoosta think that Switzerland had the best form of government.  But it has shown that the populace these days is incapable of ruling:  The people have too many fantastical ideals, not just in Switzerland.  The best government is the smallest one.  And a true democracy is the largest one.

I really do not know if you are writing this only to provoke or you really think it.

Anyway, there are many people that think like you.

There is one sentence in your text that I think is the key:

The sentiment pervading the "most civilised" cultures these days is that *I* have to provide for the "safety and security" of everyone else.  No, I'd rather worry about me and my own.

That explains all your words, and they are totally logical from this mentality.

I think differently. I do really think all humanity should work together, not the individual looking for its own.