12-12-2019, 04:12 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2019, 04:15 PM by vinnie.)
(12-11-2019, 03:40 AM)undo Wrote: This is a good question. I suppose there will have to be some sort of leg behind the phone to hold it up. Not the most aesthetic solution to be sure. Maybe it's possible to move the battery inside the keyboard? Would it be enough to make the difference?
I think that is not enough moving only the battery, maybe is possible to make a stand like some keyboard for tablet (that have a semirigid involucre that become a stand with some magnet).
(12-11-2019, 02:09 PM)Zweitaktmotor Wrote: The best keyboard I had was on my Palm Treo 680: yes I think that this kind of keyboard is for phone with smaller screen
(12-11-2019, 06:06 PM)Luke Wrote: We're happy to hear your suggestions as always. Thanks Luke! I appreciate a lot Pine's community vision.
(12-12-2019, 04:26 AM)VaZso Wrote: but a keyboard which does not cover the display would be definitively better if possible. Maybe it's a good idea to configure one of the side button of the at least to replay to incoming call without open the keyboard (but I think is important to test speaker and mic with closed shell)
(12-12-2019, 08:11 AM)wibble Wrote: They also lack certain characters often used in a linux terminal.
To me the important part would be to put the phone on a desk or on my lap and be able to actually type on it, and to touch the screen without it rocking backwards. It also has to be usable as a phone, and ideally the camera would also be usable. I don't want to have to open anything to see notifications, but I guess that's what the PineTime is for. I'm not entirely sure all these are achievable at the same time in a retrofit for an existing device, or that I could live with the extra bulk all the time.
Yes, for me it'is really important to have all'us/ascii character for linux/programming purpose and for me it is also important to have alt-gr key because I use us-layout with european accent to cover other character I need, I use also third level of compose with alt-gr + right-ctrl, this combination permit to me to have all character I need only with a normal us layout, and it's perfect, more confortable than a other-language specific keyboard.
Maybe it is possible to have an external/magneti connection on the side of phone and a slide that permint to rotate the phone on the side pivot enough to close phone on both faces? XD it is too mad, sorry
What about something that swivels, like the HP Revolve 810 laptop, where the screen rotates and folds back down so the rear of the screen is then against the keys? It's probably a little more involved to develop the swiveling hinge, but it would probably serve both markets: a good keyboard with proper keys + good travel (psion) and the convenience of using the phone without having to have it opened up (like with a sliding keyboard).
Just a random thought. I don't know how one would go about designing one though 
Can we collect a list of use cases for seeing the screen at a glance? I can't really find that many that are essential. Only seeing who is calling me and being able to answer. This could be gotten around, for example, by having the phone ring be morse code for the persons name or having a very simple lcd display on the side of the keyboard.
I don't want to say that the ideas that try to get the best of both world are not good, but I just think that there is some value in simplicity. Makes a sturdier and cheaper design, at least.
12-13-2019, 04:15 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019, 04:16 AM by VaZso.)
(12-13-2019, 03:54 AM)undo Wrote: Can we collect a list of use cases for seeing the screen at a glance? I can't really find that many that are essential. Only seeing who is calling me and being able to answer. This could be gotten around, for example, by having the phone ring be morse code for the persons name or having a very simple lcd display on the side of the keyboard.
For that, a small two-colour display can be used like any of these - I mean the display itself and not the whole module.
They have I2C capability, so practically they may also be connected to the same I2C bus like the keyboard is.
...and the rest only need some programming - so when the phone is ringing, the display may contain caller info and also some battery / signal indication can be put there.
Also, if the keyboard can determine if it is in opened / closed state then these information may be not written when opened.
So, such a small display could be a good addition to reach most important data in closed state and it does not need colours or high resolution.
Also an LCD display may be used instead of OLED with similar capability but it is a question of decision if it has to also support colours.
12-13-2019, 05:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019, 06:03 AM by undo.
Edit Reason: logical error
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Yeah, if it is feasible, a display like that could work. You could even make it show you latest text messages or whatever. So, the list:
Functions that are needed when the Psion-like keyboard is closed:
- See who is calling
- See texts
- See time
- See battery state
- Answer the call
The little screen would solve most of those, but to answer the call you would need either:
1) A headset with a button that answers the call
2) A button plus microphone and speaker on the bottom of the keyboard
Oh, I see you said in the other thread that the mic and speaker would not work with the I2C. That's a shame.
(12-13-2019, 05:50 AM)undo Wrote: Oh, I see you said in the other thread that the mic and speaker would not work with the I2C. That's a shame.
I don't know where the microphone is (have to find it), but I think it may be at the bottom of the unit and that case I don't think it is a problem.
...as of the speaker, maybe a hole above the original speaker would be enough (so near the side of the keyboard).
12-13-2019, 01:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019, 02:02 PM by vinnie.)
maybe a small monochrome lcd should not increase too much the complexity, but I agree undo, maybe it is better to aim for something cheaper and more sturdy.
I ask to pinehone chat and the mic is positioned on bottom, near usb port, so there is no problem with mic.
And it is possible to use loudspeaker if the volume is not enough with phone closed.
It also possible to use bluetooth or jack headphone (both with mic included).
And maybe it'is possible to resolve problem of information through software remapping volume keys when keyboard is closed to speak some information (with robotic espeak  ).
But I also think that it is very useful if the keyboard communicates the opening status to the phone, this status can be used to change notifications when the keyboard is closed and automatically turn on/off the screen when it is opened/closed. You could also automatically answer calls when it is opened or in any case all configurable events if you have this information.
But if the keyboard doesn't have this trigger, I think you could derive this information less precisely by logically operating on (the presence of an attached keyboard) and (the proximity sensor)
So, with a bit of software efforts of our  developer, it is possible to use also not very special keyboard.
12-15-2019, 05:30 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-15-2019, 05:59 AM by undo.
Edit Reason: failed in logic
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(12-13-2019, 01:47 PM)vinnie Wrote: I ask to pinehone chat and the mic is positioned on bottom, near usb port, so there is no problem with mic.
And it is possible to use loudspeaker if the volume is not enough with phone closed.
It also possible to use bluetooth or jack headphone (both with mic included).
And maybe it'is possible to resolve problem of information through software remapping volume keys when keyboard is closed to speak some information (with robotic espeak ).
But I also think that it is very useful if the keyboard communicates the opening status to the phone, this status can be used to change notifications when the keyboard is closed and automatically turn on/off the screen when it is opened/closed. You could also automatically answer calls when it is opened or in any case all configurable events if you have this information.
But if the keyboard doesn't have this trigger, I think you could derive this information less precisely by logically operating on (the presence of an attached keyboard) and (the proximity sensor)
Thanks, good info. I wonder though, from a user experience perspective, if it would make sense to have the proximity trigger standby. Because, this would mean that you cannot anymore open the lid and talk to the phone (It would think your face is the keyboard and go on standby). But to me it seems that this is exactly the most "natural" user experience when answering a phone; You hear it ringing, you open it, you talk to it. So, in case there is no lcd display but there is the proximity triggered standby, the sequence would be: Hear it ringing, open it to see who it is, close it and press a button. This is a crazy way to answer a phone 
EDIT: I realized, the above is not a problem, since the phone would not stop the call or the mic input or anything when the keyboard is closed. But are there other, similar problems derived from the keyboard needing the proximity sensor to know the closed state?
Honestly of all the things assumed the keyboard could include, in my opinion having a physical trigger that informs about the closure/opening of the keyboard would be really useful for me, because I can not predict if all possible cases can be covered through the proximity sensor (which I assume is present on the pinephone but I'm not sure) and I think that a physical trigger can be cheap enough, robust and reliable to integrate (I think at someting magnetic closure with contact signal integrated).
But beyond that, I think the best solution is to let the user decide what events to perform when certain conditions occur (such as keyboard presence and proximity sensor status), through an interface that perhaps already contains some preset configurations considered optimal.
So for example as you said, it would make sense not to close the call if the proximity sensor is covered because otherwise it would be impossible to talk to the phone near the ear, but if there was the physical trigger on the keyboard, it might make sense to close the call if the trigger changes state to "close".
But it is possible that someone wants this never happen and then it would make sense to be able to configure this behavior.
The reason why I might not want to have an additional screen on the keyboard is because this would be an additional piece that could break, and thus increase the complexity of the object, the cost and the fragility.
Totally agree with Nas , flip covers are quite popular and also block the screen so notifications can't be seen at a glance. Opening to see your notifications is no big deal if you're accustomed to it.
(12-14-2019, 09:16 AM)nas Wrote: I think anyone who has owned a booklet or flip cover should be okay without a secondary screen on a clamshell keyboard case. If you really depend on notifications then a better solution is the pinetime as a companion device.
I'm very interested in the psion style keyboard and would be happy without any secondary screen; less complexity, fewer things to break, lower cost.
We should consider the keyboard layout: specifically punctuation and symbols carefully - I've used a GPD pocket 2 UMPC and the apostrophe being in a non-standard position greatly slows down one's typing speed / comfort (in English at least).
The psion series 5 used a very useable / sane layout for standard punctuation, eg. having the apostrophe as a standard (not fn) key to the right of the "l" key- so care should be taken not to mess this up if adding | or other symbols geared towards terminal usage.
Perhaps it would be better to add any necessary, but less frequently used, symbols through a function key - there were many unused fn key combinations on the original psion 5 keyboard.
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