I will not continue to beat the well dead horse any longer, however I did want to make one other point.
(02-20-2022, 10:52 AM)tckosvic Wrote: Explain how power management is a user/deve/oper issue rather than a hardware/developer issue?
Since it's pretty clear you are new to F/LOSS and GNU/Linux development, here in our world there is less distinction between users and developers. At least that is sort of the oldschool hacker mentality, anyway.
The PPP was shipped and came to users with an OS and a desktop. It did not come as a barebones hardware item even though it was stated by one responder that all software is under control of user/developers not hardware/developers. Clearly some hardware developer did some work in selecting which OS/desktop and installing of the same. Why weren't some of the booting, power management, and suspension issues tested, assessed, and addressed in the OS/desktop selection process?
Wasn't anything learned from the PP phone or was nothing gained from that exercise and is the PPP a new from scratch project where everything has to be learned all over. Actually more was working on the PP upon delivery. The major issue to me on the PP was the 85% max charge but the phone booted from installed memory and even the camera kind of worked. For the PPP, not so much.
I am willing to learn this development process and help where I can. I would like to see the Development Plan that was mentioned by one responder. I assume that each development team must have its own plan, though. Perhaps updates along that path would help everyone see what is moving ahead and what is ttaking longer. Updates might be needed from each OS/desktop team and that could get cumbersome. I wonder also if the different teams are sharing info learned.
I also think there should be a bugzilla type system to better help the developers focus on the key issues that are found rather than the confused mish-mash of, at times conflicting issues, that are randomly brought up in this forum.
As a response to one responder, I have been a unix, linux user since the 60s. Not in systems development thouigh; strictly in applications development. Only IT background for me is what is necessary to run my linux system. If I can help make this work I will put the time in.
tom kosvic
02-25-2022, 03:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2022, 03:09 AM by lllsondowlll.)
(02-23-2022, 08:01 PM)tckosvic Wrote: The PPP was shipped and came to users with an OS and a desktop. It did not come as a barebones hardware item even though it was stated by one responder that all software is under control of user/developers not hardware/developers. Clearly some hardware developer did some work in selecting which OS/desktop and installing of the same. Why weren't some of the booting, power management, and suspension issues tested, assessed, and addressed in the OS/desktop selection process?
Wasn't anything learned from the PP phone or was nothing gained from that exercise and is the PPP a new from scratch project where everything has to be learned all over. Actually more was working on the PP upon delivery. The major issue to me on the PP was the 85% max charge but the phone booted from installed memory and even the camera kind of worked. For the PPP, not so much.
I am willing to learn this development process and help where I can. I would like to see the Development Plan that was mentioned by one responder. I assume that each development team must have its own plan, though. Perhaps updates along that path would help everyone see what is moving ahead and what is ttaking longer. Updates might be needed from each OS/desktop team and that could get cumbersome. I wonder also if the different teams are sharing info learned.
I also think there should be a bugzilla type system to better help the developers focus on the key issues that are found rather than the confused mish-mash of, at times conflicting issues, that are randomly brought up in this forum.
As a response to one responder, I have been a unix, linux user since the 60s. Not in systems development thouigh; strictly in applications development. Only IT background for me is what is necessary to run my linux system. If I can help make this work I will put the time in.
tom kosvic
Tom,
I feel like everyone participating in this thread is going in circles. The hardware reseller (Pine64) sold the hardware containing the OS as a base image. The distro on the phone is what is called open source, and is community driven. Pine64 had no hand in developing Manjaro mobile, and clearly stated the explorer edition shipped with beta software. The software was not being sold to you, it was included as a demo. What you purchased was the hardware. This phone shipped as is for testing, and early access. Power management discussion in this thread is being far too over simplified as hardware and software are not married as you understand it. The kernel needs further development to fully utilize the phone's components. As an original owner of the first Pinephone 2GB edition, I can tell you it did not ship ready either with suspend and power management optimized. In fact PPP is in a better state software wise because of the advancements made on the original device, what is being worked on is the integration with the new hardware. You purchased a product still under development. That's the expectation set by Pine64, that's what you got.
Complaints about the software not being ready, or concerns would be better directed at the distros and their community forums / discussion. As for a buzilla type solution, there is a tab on every distro's GitHub called issues you can submit and collaborate.
I.e.
Arch:
https://github.com/dreemurrs-embedded/Pi...rch/issues
Manjaro Phosh:
https://github.com/manjaro-pinephone/phosh/issues
02-26-2022, 05:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022, 05:51 PM by tckosvic.)
(02-25-2022, 03:04 AM)lllsondowlll Wrote: (02-23-2022, 08:01 PM)tckosvic Wrote: The PPP was shipped and came to users with an OS and a desktop. It did not come as a barebones hardware item even though it was stated by one responder that all software is under control of user/developers not hardware/developers. Clearly some hardware developer did some work in selecting which OS/desktop and installing of the same. Why weren't some of the booting, power management, and suspension issues tested, assessed, and addressed in the OS/desktop selection process?
Wasn't anything learned from the PP phone or was nothing gained from that exercise and is the PPP a new from scratch project where everything has to be learned all over. Actually more was working on the PP upon delivery. The major issue to me on the PP was the 85% max charge but the phone booted from installed memory and even the camera kind of worked. For the PPP, not so much.
I am willing to learn this development process and help where I can. I would like to see the Development Plan that was mentioned by one responder. I assume that each development team must have its own plan, though. Perhaps updates along that path would help everyone see what is moving ahead and what is ttaking longer. Updates might be needed from each OS/desktop team and that could get cumbersome. I wonder also if the different teams are sharing info learned.
I also think there should be a bugzilla type system to better help the developers focus on the key issues that are found rather than the confused mish-mash of, at times conflicting issues, that are randomly brought up in this forum.
As a response to one responder, I have been a unix, linux user since the 60s. Not in systems development thouigh; strictly in applications development. Only IT background for me is what is necessary to run my linux system. If I can help make this work I will put the time in.
tom kosvic
Tom,
I feel like everyone participating in this thread is going in circles. The hardware reseller (Pine64) sold the hardware containing the OS as a base image. The distro on the phone is what is called open source, and is community driven. Pine64 had no hand in developing Manjaro mobile, and clearly stated the explorer edition shipped with beta software. The software was not being sold to you, it was included as a demo. What you purchased was the hardware. This phone shipped as is for testing, and early access. Power management discussion in this thread is being far too over simplified as hardware and software are not married as you understand it. The kernel needs further development to fully utilize the phone's components. As an original owner of the first Pinephone 2GB edition, I can tell you it did not ship ready either with suspend and power management optimized. In fact PPP is in a better state software wise because of the advancements made on the original device, what is being worked on is the integration with the new hardware. You purchased a product still under development. That's the expectation set by Pine64, that's what you got.
Complaints about the software not being ready, or concerns would be better directed at the distros and their community forums / discussion. As for a buzilla type solution, there is a tab on every distro's GitHub called issues you can submit and collaborate.
I.e.
Arch:
https://github.com/dreemurrs-embedded/Pi...rch/issues
Manjaro Phosh:
https://github.com/manjaro-pinephone/phosh/issues
(02-26-2022, 05:11 PM)tckosvic Wrote: (02-25-2022, 03:04 AM)lllsondowlll Wrote: (02-23-2022, 08:01 PM)tckosvic Wrote: The PPP was shipped and came to users with an OS and a desktop. It did not come as a barebones hardware item even though it was stated by one responder that all software is under control of user/developers not hardware/developers. Clearly some hardware developer did some work in selecting which OS/desktop and installing of the same. Why weren't some of the booting, power management, and suspension issues tested, assessed, and addressed in the OS/desktop selection process?
Wasn't anything learned from the PP phone or was nothing gained from that exercise and is the PPP a new from scratch project where everything has to be learned all over. Actually more was working on the PP upon delivery. The major issue to me on the PP was the 85% max charge but the phone booted from installed memory and even the camera kind of worked. For the PPP, not so much.
I am willing to learn this development process and help where I can. I would like to see the Development Plan that was mentioned by one responder. I assume that each development team must have its own plan, though. Perhaps updates along that path would help everyone see what is moving ahead and what is ttaking longer. Updates might be needed from each OS/desktop team and that could get cumbersome. I wonder also if the different teams are sharing info learned.
I also think there should be a bugzilla type system to better help the developers focus on the key issues that are found rather than the confused mish-mash of, at times conflicting issues, that are randomly brought up in this forum.
As a response to one responder, I have been a unix, linux user since the 60s. Not in systems development thouigh; strictly in applications development. Only IT background for me is what is necessary to run my linux system. If I can help make this work I will put the time in.
tom kosvic
Tom,
I feel like everyone participating in this thread is going in circles. The hardware reseller (Pine64) sold the hardware containing the OS as a base image. The distro on the phone is what is called open source, and is community driven. Pine64 had no hand in developing Manjaro mobile, and clearly stated the explorer edition shipped with beta software. The software was not being sold to you, it was included as a demo. What you purchased was the hardware. This phone shipped as is for testing, and early access. Power management discussion in this thread is being far too over simplified as hardware and software are not married as you understand it. The kernel needs further development to fully utilize the phone's components. As an original owner of the first Pinephone 2GB edition, I can tell you it did not ship ready either with suspend and power management optimized. In fact PPP is in a better state software wise because of the advancements made on the original device, what is being worked on is the integration with the new hardware. You purchased a product still under development. That's the expectation set by Pine64, that's what you got.
Complaints about the software not being ready, or concerns would be better directed at the distros and their community forums / discussion. As for a buzilla type solution, there is a tab on every distro's GitHub called issues you can submit and collaborate.
I.e.
Arch:
https://github.com/dreemurrs-embedded/Pi...rch/issues
Manjaro Phosh:
https://github.com/manjaro-pinephone/phosh/issues
I totally agree about the confusion. I think most viewers of this site do not know where the latest software is and what the most recent changes were. This info is available, it appears. I will give a try to summarize the software sites and their github resourses, if I can, and publish a listing in this forum. This list should also list where bugs can be filed.
In starting this, I am not clear as to what is the difference on, e.g., the manjaro-phosh github sites between releases (beta XXX versions) and development versions. Are development versions nightly builds and beta versions published after some milestone?
Perhaps, knowledge of what is the latest software for test can help show forward movements.
tom kosvic
02-26-2022, 11:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2022, 11:42 PM by lllsondowlll.)
"Are development versions nightly builds and beta versions published after some milestone?"
Yes, that is correct. Development build usually use "Unstable branch" in Linux to test the latest packages.
(02-26-2022, 05:11 PM)tckosvic Wrote: I will give a try to summarize the software sites and their github resourses, if I can, and publish a listing in this forum. This list should also list where bugs can be filed.
There is already https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_S...e_Releases, which you are likely better off contributing to editing, rather than spend your effort starting from scratch.
There is also quite a lot of helpful information at https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone (and other pages).
The Mobian wiki is also quite helpful, whether or not you use Mobian.
I think there would be less confusion if Pine64 went back to shipping their phones with the simple
"Hardware Testing operating system" ---- like they did with the Brave Heart phones.
Too many purchasers just assume Manjaro "works and is the best, Because their phone came with it installed"
LINUX = CHOICES
**BCnAZ**
Donate to $upport
your favorite OS Team
(03-23-2022, 04:18 AM)bcnaz Wrote: I think there would be less confusion if Pine64 went back to shipping their phones with the simple
"Hardware Testing operating system" ---- like they did with the Brave Heart phones.
Too many purchasers just assume Manjaro "works and is the best, Because their phone came with it installed"
I thought the disclaimer was pretty spot on about the PPP. They did not make any hints that this phone can work as a daily driver out of the box.
I knew exactly what I purchased, and to a degree it has exceeded my expectations.
(03-23-2022, 09:03 AM)LPIZ Wrote: (03-23-2022, 04:18 AM)bcnaz Wrote: I think there would be less confusion if Pine64 went back to shipping their phones with the simple
"Hardware Testing operating system" ---- like they did with the Brave Heart phones.
Too many purchasers just assume Manjaro "works and is the best, Because their phone came with it installed"
I thought the disclaimer was pretty spot on about the PPP. They did not make any hints that this phone can work as a daily driver out of the box.
I knew exactly what I purchased, and to a degree it has exceeded my expectations.
I'm a little disappointed, but that's purely down to me being impatient and excited for the PPP to really hit its stride. Like you, I know exactly what I was getting into when I bought my PPP and that it wasn't going to be a daily driver right out of the box. It'll get there eventually. I have another phone I can use in the meantime.
I saw "development plan" and "development team" and had to say something.
I would be 100% surprised if anyone working on PinePhone software get compensated in anything much more than coffee money for the equivalent amount of time they give as volunteers. Outside of some mentions of kernel funding (which I'm sure was still far less than the value the kernel development provided) this is effectively a volunteer effort. Help out or wait it out.
Also, shout out to the DanctNIX and Biktorgj for always being so responsive to issue reports.
|
