Kinda upset at the lack of response to GBe issues

[MarkHaysHarris777]

hi folks, I have been studying the data sheet for the RTL8211E(G) ;  thought it might be helpful to post it here.

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Reviewing the schematic (out-of-date as it is) I find that there are five (5) count them, five different chips used at the time of printing:
RTL:
8211CN
8211D
8211E
8201FN
8201EN

The RTL8211E(G) is a 16x4 pin chip... the chip on my PineA64(3) is the RTL8211E a 12x4 pin chip.

The data sheet I posted is for the RTL8211E RTL8211E(G).

The schematic shows many mods capable by adding or removing resistors, depending which physical chip is installed on your board. In my view, its no wonder that many different boards are behaving differently with regard to GbE; who knows which chip they have, and who knows how they are modded !

It would be good if everyone contributing to this discussion were to be intimately familiar with their own boards;  which physical chip do you have?  Study the schematic we have and try to determine how your board was modded.   The print is tiny and hard to read, even with a scope (the angle of the light source helps).  I used a hand scope to read mine.

We should start a database of boards that work, vs boards that don't work... by serial number, PHY, mods... let's see if there is a pattern.

It is looking like the boards that ARE working are running into an 'unmanaged' router; ie TEG S82G, and others similar.

Edit:  also, it would also be nice to know if the chip is a 'GREEN' chip   Gxxxx

   for instance:  the chip in my PineA64(1) is an RTL8211E
                                     G2k40P2
                                     GG10B      a 'GREEN' chip

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[Boring]

Mark,

That sounds like a plan. But aren't you concerned with the confidential en copyright statements of your data sheet?

[MarkHaysHarris777]

Mark,

That sounds like a plan. But aren't you concerned with the confidential en copyright statements of your data sheet?

... not in the slightest.

This use is 'fair' under the circumstances, certainly, and the data sheet was made publically available for download on the open Internet.

[MarkHaysHarris777]

I have moved this thread to the ethernet port sub-forum, and have made it 'sticky'.

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The GbE data gathering thread (poll) is now open. 

... please DO NOT post discussion to the data gathering poll thread. Thank you.  Continue to discuss the GbE issue on this thread.  Please take time to vote on the survey poll.  If you have questions DO NOT post them to the survey thread; post them here, or ask them on the irc channel-- I monitor both most days throughout the day.

Please DO POST the data requested in the data gathering poll thread.  I made a 'first post' indicating the data we would like.  If you can think of more that might be relevant, please let me know here, PM, irc chat, or email.

thank you.

[pfeerick]

hi pfeerick,  there is another way to look at this issue, as well. 

... and that is the legal way to look at it from the standpoint of the agreement on the back of every cardboard box that the PineA64 board is shipped in. 

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Again, I am asking for everyone to engage in some common sense cooperation and collaboration.  It would be much better for us (mostly volunteers and users) to work together to solve this issue, than to beat-up Pine Inc, or engage in silly flame-war attacks on each other.  I'm not the enemy;  I'm trying to help.  Let's work together and lets get this figured out. But let's do it in a civil polite manner that is respectful and conducive to cooperation and effective collaboration; that's all I'm asking.

If you really want to start that argument with a law student... 

I can tell you for a fact that the argument you proposed will NOT fly in Australia... it has been legislated that in addition to the express warranty provided by a manufacturer, that there are rights that cannot be waived, one of which is that a product is fit for purpose. This would naturally apply more to purchases from the pine64 store, as the kickstarter is presented as a chance to support, rather than purchase transaction.

However, I do not want to start that argument and as I pointed out, the real issue is that for the people who backed/purchased the pine64 with the intention of using the GbE, it's not working for them. Enough said! Lets get back to fixing the problem!

[MarkHaysHarris777]

hi pfeerick,  there is another way to look at this issue, as well. 

... and that is the legal way to look at it from the standpoint of the agreement on the back of every cardboard box that the PineA64 board is shipped in. 

---

Again, I am asking for everyone to engage in some common sense cooperation and collaboration.  It would be much better for us (mostly volunteers and users) to work together to solve this issue, than to beat-up Pine Inc, or engage in silly flame-war attacks on each other.  I'm not the enemy;  I'm trying to help.  Let's work together and lets get this figured out. But let's do it in a civil polite manner that is respectful and conducive to cooperation and effective collaboration; that's all I'm asking.

If you really want to start that argument with a law student... 

I can tell you for a fact that the argument you proposed will NOT fly in Australia... it has been legislated that in addition to the express warranty provided by a manufacturer, that there are rights that cannot be waived, one of which is that a product is fit for purpose. This would naturally apply more to purchases from the pine64 store, as the kickstarter is presented as a chance to support, rather than purchase transaction.

However, I do not want to start that argument and as I pointed out, the real issue is that for the people who backed/purchased the pine64 with the intention of using the GbE, it's not working for them. Enough said! Lets  get back to fixing the problem!

Some jurisdictions don't allow for exclusions... it also says that right on the box too.  But that was not my point... my point was that Pine Inc has explicitly stated, essentially,  "this product is not suitable for anything".

The risk for suitability is with the customer.  (that is the intent).  My point is that no one made anyone any promises. Much of that was assumed. Please see my poll , and whether you're affected directly or not, please take the poll, and fill out the requested data... we will get to the bottom of this.

[pfeerick]

hi pfeerick,  there is another way to look at this issue, as well. 

... and that is the legal way to look at it from the standpoint of the agreement on the back of every cardboard box that the PineA64 board is shipped in. 

---

Again, I am asking for everyone to engage in some common sense cooperation and collaboration.  It would be much better for us (mostly volunteers and users) to work together to solve this issue, than to beat-up Pine Inc, or engage in silly flame-war attacks on each other.  I'm not the enemy;  I'm trying to help.  Let's work together and lets get this figured out. But let's do it in a civil polite manner that is respectful and conducive to cooperation and effective collaboration; that's all I'm asking.

If you really want to start that argument with a law student... 

I can tell you for a fact that the argument you proposed will NOT fly in Australia... it has been legislated that in addition to the express warranty provided by a manufacturer, that there are rights that cannot be waived, one of which is that a product is fit for purpose. This would naturally apply more to purchases from the pine64 store, as the kickstarter is presented as a chance to support, rather than purchase transaction.

However, I do not want to start that argument and as I pointed out, the real issue is that for the people who backed/purchased the pine64 with the intention of using the GbE, it's not working for them. Enough said! Lets  get back to fixing the problem!

Some jurisdictions don't allow for exclusions... it also says that right on the box too.  But that was not my point... my point was that Pine Inc has explicitly stated, essentially,  "this product is not suitable for anything".

The risk for suitability is with the customer.  (that is the intent).  My point is that no one made anyone any promises. Much of that was assumed. Please see my poll , and whether you're affected directly or not, please take the poll, and fill out the requested data... we will get to the bottom of this.

I'd hope you really didn't think that's what they meant... that is a quick way for a business to put them selves out of business 'we are selling you this product, but we aren't saying its suitable for anything at all!'... that would really inspire customers to deal with them! And on that note, part of the warranty disclaimer is actually missing... note the first line states 'Except to the extent sent forth above in this limited warranty'... wonder who goofed up on that (and in stating what the warranty period was, since it is mentioned later, but not defined). 

lol... I was in the middle of doing that

Have you worked out how to tell the difference between the RTL8211E-VB and VL variants? The datasheet doesn't seem to list the breakdown of the rest of the chip part numbering so you know which is which.

[MarkHaysHarris777]

Have you worked out how to tell the difference between the RTL8211E-VB and VL variants? The datasheet doesn't seem to list the breakdown of the rest of the chip part numbering so you know which is which.

I'm still studying the data sheet more to find out what kinds of things might affect whether it would autoneg too much, or not autoneg, or ... basically, how does that particular chip work vs how might it work with one of the mods listed in the schematic. It is a complex schematic, and a very complex chip (inexpensive as it is... you can get the chip for $2.25).

Of course it does not help that we don't have an up-to-date schematic. I was hoping against hope that my Pine boards might have a one-off chip... but no... I still have to remove the board from my play box, but so far my boards are all 'Green' chips  RTL8211E

[pfeerick]

I'm still studying the data sheet more to find out what kinds of things might affect whether it would autoneg too much, or not autoneg, or ... basically, how does that particular chip work vs how might it work with one of the mods listed in the schematic. It is a complex schematic, and a very complex chip (inexpensive as it is... you can get the chip for $2.25).

Of course it does not help that we don't have an up-to-date schematic. I was hoping against hope that my Pine boards might have a one-off chip... but no... I still have to remove the board from my play box, but so far my boards are all 'Green' chips  RTL8211E

From what I can tell so far, it will either autoneg or not auto-neg... there's not much more to it. Most of the rest of the information is just telling you the sequence it does things in, and what is shoved into what register. 

On page 16, it tells you what the AN[0] and AN[1] pins need to be set to in order to enable autonegotiation, or manually set the speed/duplexing. Since pull-high or pull-lower resistors are used, it seems that both AN[0] and AN[1] should be pulled high (11). Which if I'm reading p18 of the pine64 schematic right, should be the case. What I can't tell is if the config registers can override this, as there is a specific 'restart auto-negotiation (register 0.9)' register, which if it can override the config pins (which I doubt), could still enable auto-negotation.

Whilst this a somewhat comprehensive datasheet at times, it can still be pretty crappy (no wonder they hide it behind a NDA screen... hope pine64 don't get in trouble for releasing that into the wild!) Oh how I wish it were one of the Atmel datasheets... 234 pages of overkill for a 8 pin chip!!!! : Or, not to be outdone... Microchip have a mere 397 treekiller for a 8 pin chip!

[MarkHaysHarris777]

I'd hope you really didn't think that's what they meant... that is a quick way for a business to put them selves out of business 'we are selling you this product, but we aren't saying its suitable for anything at all!'... 

Its a weird positive statement, but that is specifically and precisely what they mean, they (WHOMEVER) just hope that you believe the marketing (and assume what you will) because what they mean is precisely what the EULA says.  That's why we call it fine print... because we don't want to market the fine print, but if push comes to shove (in court) the fine print is ALL we meant to say; period.

If you're in law school you know this.

I do this with my software all the time.  I write it; and I hope that you use it, and even find it useful. But don't come back to me with any complaints, or law suits, or whining, nor anything else--- because my fine print in the header of all of my software says, this is not guaranteed to be useful for anything (the language is rich, and full and it takes three paragraphs to say it, but it all boils down to "use my stuff at YOUR OWN RISK ENTIRELY"

This is specifically and especially true of startups. Sure the Pine Inc wants people to invest;  but they (WHOMEVER) do not want to be liable. There is the balance.  The fine print is there to protect them from liability (for suitability and other stuff) in the event that someone construes their startup to be more that it ever was intended. 

If you read the back of the box very carefully you will note that it actually does in fact say what I'm telling you--- " ... does not warrant that the products are error free or will function without interruption".  That sentence right there says, (in so many words) "We do not warrant that GbE will work accurately (without error), nor that it work without interruption"

The EULA is very specific, and yes, it will fly in court... in the United States. (it is standard language and it flies all the time, in the United States).  And here's the deal... like it or not... you're supposed to read that agreement before you open the seal on the box.  The truth is that most people are so excited to open the box, they don't even know there is an agreement under there !   I've tested this many times now... I have not found even ONE person yet, that new the EULA was on the bottom of the box... true story.  If you knew, you are the exception.