Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China
#1
Not sure if this has been discussed, or if this is "too political" or not PC to talk about around these parts, but has there been any?

More and more, I'm starting to look for items made and produced outside of mainland China.  I understand that certain components would be hard--if not impossible to source--but it's nice to a see a "Made in the UK" stamp on a RPi box/board or "Made in Korea" on HardKernel's products, for example.  Yeah, I love how open source everything w/ Pine64 it still bugs me.  Yeah, I realize it's a complicated topic wrt cost, logistics, etc.

Sorry, if this has been posted before.
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#2
Well this interests me too. I avoid "made in China" almost always. The exceptions are traditional Chinese products, and, well electronic things that can't be bought made elsewhere.
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#3
If PINE64 were willing to establish a new supply chain out of the PRC, I'd gladly eat the overhead. But I get the feeling this will either never happen, is many years away, or will be forced by political strife.
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#4
I think this is a GREAT idea!! 

Logistics may prove daunting, since the idea requires infrastructure that may not otherwise exist elsewhere be created....

Still, as Pine64 already creates bits and pieces of computers, it stands to reason that to start, you could take those pieces somewhere else and put them together.  But are folks willing to pay the price it would likely cost? Hard to beat the price China charges. But if things get hard to get, like they've been already, that can help move things in a new direction.....

This seems like a project made for helping a group of people who need a new occupation after the financial debacle we're in now....Seems like things always come down to money Undecided

But who knows, maybe there's an entrepreneur that might find this a great idea... :-)
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#5
(07-30-2020, 05:39 PM)LittleWalter Wrote: Not sure if this has been discussed, or if this is "too political" or not PC to talk about around these parts, but has there been any?

More and more, I'm starting to look for items made and produced outside of mainland China.  I understand that certain components would be hard--if not impossible to source--but it's nice to a see a "Made in the UK" stamp on a RPi box/board or "Made in Korea" on HardKernel's products, for example.  Yeah, I love how open source everything w/ Pine64 it still bugs me.  Yeah, I realize it's a complicated topic wrt cost, logistics, etc.

Sorry, if this has been posted before.

This is called capitalism, guys.

Think about two companies. One hires local people, local resources in a country where human rights are respected, where salaries have to reach decency and assure enough to live. The other company hires people in another country without worker protection. No human rights applied, you can even hire kids. Salary is almost nothing, they can work 24/7, and if they complain they are fired.

What company do you think will survive and which will fail?

we live in a crazy world!!
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#6
Sometimes too crazy Undecided
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#7
It's not quite capitalism. China is only cheaper, monetarily, in the short term. There are other costs which most people don't consider.

Also, there is a huge culture disparity here. "Salary is almost nothing, they can work 24/7, and if they complain they are fired." That isn't exactly true:

You can't really compare salaries that simply. Does your employer provide for all your food, clothing, and shelter requirements? For your whole family?

8 hour work days are strictly enforced in China. They have a very large population and the government is very committed to making sure everyone has a job. And they are very good at this. If work shifts were longer, less people would be employed. Now this isn't that simple either. Workers have other responsibilities to their employer outside of working hours. But again, it's a whole different culture. We commute to get away from our employer outside of working hours. They do not. (Nor can they.)

If they complain, they don't get fired. You don't really get fired in China. You might get relocated though, and this is not a good thing. So you don't complain. And why would you? The grass isn't greener in the other place. Workers have good incentive to be where they are because they really do have it much better where they are. Not that they really have a choice though. They work where they do because government gives them the opportunity to.

Here's why I don't buy "Made in China". China has something that other places, like the USA have. They have tremendous resources. They can do anything they want without anyone else's help. USA has this too, but we (in general) have this culture of making other people do things that we consider "too dirty" for us to do, for some reason. And we have strange ideas about preservation (in my opinion). China makes it seem lucrative for us to rely on them, for the sake of bringing our economy down: and theirs up. And they are highly successful at this, mostly because people outside China turn a blind eye to the real cost.

We don't need China, and China doesn't need us. This isn't USA specific, but I can only stress this from a USA perspective. It doesn't seem to me that other states have it any different.

Ideally, in my opinion, we hardly need to trade with China at all. But it does make sense to trade some things. It makes sense to buy Chinese tea, just like it makes sense to buy Cuban cigars.

Ironically I write this wearing a made-in-China shirt. But I bought it in China as a souvenir. Smile
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#8
(07-31-2020, 12:39 PM)KC9UDX Wrote: It's not quite capitalism.  China is only cheaper, monetarily, in the short term.  There are other costs which most people don't consider.

Also, there is a huge culture disparity here.  "Salary is almost nothing, they can work 24/7, and if they complain they are fired." That isn't exactly true: 

You can't really compare salaries that simply.  Does your employer provide for all your food, clothing, and shelter requirements?  For your whole family?

8 hour work days are strictly enforced in China.  They have a very large population and the government is very committed to making sure everyone has a job. And they are very good at this.  If work shifts were longer, less people would be employed.    Now this isn't that simple either.  Workers have other responsibilities to their employer outside of working hours.  But again, it's a whole different culture.  We commute to get away from our employer outside of working hours. They do not.  (Nor can they.)

If they complain, they don't get fired.  You don't really get fired in China.  You might get relocated though, and this is not a good thing.  So you don't complain.  And why would you?  The grass isn't greener in the other place.  Workers have good incentive to be where they are because they really do have it much better where they are.  Not that they really have a choice though.  They work where they do because government gives them the opportunity to.

Here's why I don't buy "Made in China".  China has something that other places, like the USA have.  They have tremendous resources.  They can do anything they want without anyone else's help.  USA has this too, but we (in general) have this culture of making other people do things that we consider "too dirty" for us to do, for some reason.  And we have strange ideas about preservation (in my opinion).  China makes it seem lucrative for us to rely on them, for the sake of bringing our economy down: and theirs up.  And they are highly successful at this, mostly because people outside China turn a blind eye to the real cost.

We don't need China, and China doesn't need us.  This isn't USA specific, but I can only stress this from a USA perspective.  It doesn't seem to me that other states have it any different.

Ideally, in my opinion, we hardly need to trade with China at all.  But it does make sense to trade some things.  It makes sense to buy Chinese tea, just like it makes sense to buy Cuban cigars.

Ironically I write this wearing a made-in-China shirt.  But I bought it in China as a souvenir. Smile
Your post is an insult to human rights.

One thing is to acknowledge that we are abusing China and many other countries using their cheap labor force, but we have no option. We have also to live in a society where we can not be the heroes refusing to buy cheap merchandise (such as your shirt). Similarly, we all know the bloody conditions on African mines so we can have our fancy technology. etc.

But it makes it even worse if you try to say that Chinese factories are fair with workers. Man, we are talking about a country without freedom. We are buying there because the prices are sooo cheap. Why are prices so cheap, because they abuse their workers. They are not paid, they work extra hours, and if they fight against the system, they will be jailed
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#9
(07-31-2020, 01:17 PM)natasha Wrote: Your post is an insult to human rights.

One thing is to acknowledge that we are abusing China and many other countries using their cheap labor force, but we have no option. We have also to live in a society where we can not be the heroes refusing to buy cheap merchandise (such as your shirt). Similarly, we all know the bloody conditions on African mines so we can have our fancy technology. etc.

But it makes it even worse if you try to say that Chinese factories are fair with workers. Man, we are talking about a country without freedom. We are buying there because the prices are sooo cheap. Why are prices so cheap, because they abuse their workers. They are not paid, they work extra hours, and if they fight against the system, they will be jailed t
Your post is an example of "first world" "saw it on TV". Smile

Keep in mind that people aren't powerless.  We all live in different cultures, some a little different, some very different.  If people are in a dire situation, they find a way out. 

Your standard of living is not an inalienable human right.  There actually aren't any inalienable human rights.  You get rights by fiat.  If you don't believe me, look at the "basic rights" that are being casually removed in many places right this minute.  If this isn't happening to you, you're very fortunate.

I bought this shirt at the silk market in Beijing, as a souvenir.  Every other shirt I buy is made in California.  You can bet I have a choice not to buy clothing in China, and I don't.  It means that at the end of the day, the Chinese worker has more money than I have to spend on nightlife.  But that's my choice.  I don't ever buy anything cheap because it's cheap.  I bought two PBPs because if the philosophy of the design, not because it's cheap and Chinese.  It doesn't bother me that I bought one thing made in China.  I go out of my way not to, but there are times when it's unavoidable.
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#10
Yes, of course, my opinion is based on the situation I know from watching TV, reading the news,...  and I do not like what I see... I am not getting your point.  Are you saying that what I see on TV is not true? Large American and European companies do not move their factories to countries where they can use cheap labor? must be fake news then...

Buying stuff from your own country can be very nice if the reason is to remove support from these abusive companies and to support local businesses. I do not think this is your reason...

I do not get your words on human rights either. Don't you think they should be a must for everyone? shouldn't we fight to protect them anywhere in the world?

I don't know... just shocked some people can have this way of thinking... sadly too many...
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