+- PINE64 (https://forum.pine64.org)
+-- Forum: PinePhone (https://forum.pine64.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=120)
+--- Forum: General Discussion on PinePhone (https://forum.pine64.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=127)
+--- Thread: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs (/showthread.php?tid=10404)
Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - amosbatto - 06-24-2020
I'm trying to update my comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs:
https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827
Can anyone tell me:
- What RAM chip is used in the PinePhone (or at least what speed of RAM)?
- What Flash memory chip is used in the PinePhone?
- Is the A64 on the PinePhone running at 1.2 GHz or 1.152 GHz?
- Can anyone weigh the PinePhone to verify that it is 185 grams?
- What is the specific Goodix touchscreen controller chip?
- Can the battery be replaced just using fingers (no tools)?
- Is there a list of the apps available in Ubuntu Touch?
- Are there any other chips on the PinePhone that I missed?
- Has anyone benchmarked the performance of the PinePhone?
- Will both DisplayPort and HDMI Alt Mode work over the USB-C port?
- Does anyone know the clock speed of the Mali-400 MP2 GPU?
Thanks in advance for your help.
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - fsflover - 06-24-2020
> Will both DisplayPort and HDMI Alt Mode work over the USB-C port?
There is currently a hardware bug here: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10229 and https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10255
Also, I think you should mention in your post that it is not just specs that are important when you choose what to buy. Here is a good text about possible other reasons (taken from Youtube comments; hard to find a direct link):
"Amos Batto
4 hours ago (edited)
@Fuseteam, There are different development models and different goals for the two phones, and those make for very different costs. See my article on why the Librem 5 costs so much: https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2019/12/01/decide-pinephone-vs-librem-5/
It is clear that you like PINE64's low-cost strategy of:
1. adapting a platform which PinePhone has been working on since 2015 to use on a phone,
2. using old hardware which is already well supported in mainline Linux,
3. partnering with community projects to provide the software
I am very happy that we have two companies producing mobile Linux devices because both companies together will grow the mobile Linux market. I think that PINE64 is playing a very valuable role and I am planning on buying the PineTab, but let me offer some reasons why I decided to buy the Librem 5 over the PinePhone:
1. UBports, LuneOS, Nemo and Maemo Leste are huge code bases which are largely siloed and it will a large amount of work to maintain them in the long-term. These communities took code bases developed by companies, and are trying to maintain them with volunteers. You need a group of very dedicated volunteers to make that sustainable or you need companies that pay developers to work on the projects. PINE64's donation of $10 per phone isn't enough to pay developers to do the work, and I'm skeptical that any of these projects is going to be well maintained with just volunteer labor, because each of those communities is very small and there are no companies paying developers to work on the projects.
I worked 10 years as the community lead in an open source company, so I have some idea of the challenges. With volunteers, you are going to get a lot of devices tested and people developing apps (which is what we see with postmarketOS and UBports), but you don't get many people doing serious work on the core. The open source projects that work well are the ones where there are people who maintain the code as part of their job, which is the case if you investigate who contributes to many projects such as the Linux kernel, PostgreSQL, Apache and PHP.
In my opinion, the only viable choices for Purism were either KDE Plasma Mobile or developing GTK/Phosh, because both could rely on an active larger community to help maintain the code in the long term, and both communities have corporate sponsors who pay developers to work on the projects. Purism would have had to do a lot of dev work to make Plasma Mobile work for the Librem 5, and Purism didn't want to switch its desktop to KDE and it didn't want to maintain a separate environment for the desktop and the phone, since its goal was convergence between the two. Given the fact that Purism had spent years working with GTK/GNOME and its alignment with the FSF, there were reasons for the company to develop Phosh.
Since I want to establish Linux as viable mobile OS in the long term, I want to support a company that can pay developers to work on making that a reality. I can see that happening with Purism, but not with PINE64.
2. I want mobile Linux to be an alternative for normal people, not just a dev environment for tech enthusiasts. The goal of PINE64 is to serve tinkerers, open source communities and Linux geeks, whereas the goal of Purism is to make devices for non-technical users who value privacy and freedom. Of course, it will take many years for Purism to reach its goal, but Purism's planned PureOS Store shows me that it is trying to create a viable alternative to the Google Play Store and Apple Store that ordinary people can use.
3. I want a Linux phone that can replace my current smartphone running LineageOS. The hardware in the PinePhone simply isn't good enough and never will be, because the A64 only supports a maximum of 5 megapixels in the camera, and its Mali-400 2MP is simply not good enough for the graphics processing that I need. The Librem 5's GPU is twice as powerful and its CPU is 30% faster in Evergreen and will be 50% faster in Fir than the PinePhone. If I buy a PinePhone, I will still have to carry around my current phone, because the PinePhone's camera is not good enough to become my primary phone.
4. The two biggest problems in the tech industry are planned obsolescence and surveillance Capitalism, and the Librem 5 is designed to solve both of those problems. The PinePhone is far better than most phones on both these issues, but I want to reform the tech industry, and Purism sees that as part of its mission.
5. I care deeply about promoting the ideas of the FSF, so I want to support a company aligned with the goals of the FSF. I want to support 100% free software and open hardware. Yes, I know that the PinePhone will only have 3 proprietary files in /lib/firmware for the Realtek WiFi/BT, so there isn't much technical difference, but there is a huge difference in terms of the message that the Librem 5 sends to the world when released as the first RYF phone and the second phone with free/open schematics.
6. Purism is working to get new hardware supported by the Linux kernel, so we have more hardware options in the future. If you check Purism's commits to the kernel, you will see that it is adding new hardware to the kernel, not just using old hardware that already has good Linux support, which is what PINE64 is doing. Purism's work on the i.MX 8M drivers is important, because that same work will benefit other projects such as the MNT Reform, which will be the first open hardware laptop. Purism's work with Redpine Signals is vitally important because it will allow the Linux community to have decent 802.11n WiFi and Bluetooth 5 without binary blobs in the Linux file system, which has been a huge problem for the Linux community, since the only current solution has been crappy Atheros Ath9 WiFi that doesn't work well and requires proprietary firmware for the Bluetooth.
Purism works with suppliers like NXP and Redpine Signals which have a history of contributing code to the community, whereas PINE64 selected Allwinner which currently violates the GPL and won't answer any questions from the community and Realtek, which used to violate the GPL. Purism rewards good suppliers with business, whereas PINE64 rewards bad suppliers with business. The goal of Purism is to "drive change up the supply chain," and it says that it will have more power to make change in the hardware industry as its volume grows. I don't know if Purism will really make much of a difference in this respect, but I think that it is a good strategy, and I want to support its efforts.
7. The Librem 5 is a more innovative phone. I count 6 innovations in the Librem 5, where as I count 2 innovations in the PinePhone, that have never been done before in the mobile phone industry. See: https://forums.puri.sm/t/pinephone-vs-librem-5/9092/6
When I think about my long term goals for the tech industry, I see strategic reasons to support Purism over PINE64. None of this is to say that others may come to other conclusions and have other priorities, but just understand why people like me have chosen to support the development of the Librem 5 over the PinePhone."
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - wibble - 06-24-2020
192g on my uncalibrated kitchen scales. That's phone with supplied screen protector, battery, back cover, SIM, no uSD and no additional case.
No tools required to replace the battery. There's a notch in one corner of the back cover for a fingernail, and a similar notch in the bottom of the battery to make removal easier. Remember to slide the battery slightly towards the top of the phone before lifting the bottom of the battery - this releases the bumps that stop the battery falling out as soon as you take the back cover off.
Any list of apps will be outdated by changes in the respective repository or app store - why not just point there instead?
On the innovations front you should probably check what was done with the OpenMoko GTA01 and GTA02 as they got there with several of them, and even then they arguably weren't first:
* bootable from uSD - I guess it depends where you draw the line. uBoot loaded from onboard NAND or NOR - one was the failsafe so you couldn't brick it, and the other could be updated. The kernel, rootfs etc. could be on internal flash partitions or uSD. uBoot had screen and hardware button access, so could be set up to provide a boot menu - I think at one point I had one OS on the internal flash and another 3 on different uSD partitions, with a shared data partition
* Multiple OS support - notably there was a NetBSD port as well as the many linux-based options. There were at least 10.
* No firmware blobs in the main filesystem - the Atheros firmware was in a PROM on the module and wasn't user-updateable. This kept FSF happy as it's now magically 'hardware', but left the owner stuffed when a bug was found in the firmware. This is the part of RYF that I profoundly disagree with - there's a firmware blob either way, and I want the freedom to update it if I want to.
* First convergence as PC - there wasn't much in the way of mobile interfaces at the time, so adapting desktop stuff to work on a small touchscreen was necessary. There were bits that people had done for the iPaq and early tablets.
* Lifetime software updates - at least I think that was the plan - in the end updates were there as long as the company was, and community support after that was possible because everything was open anyway.
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - amosbatto - 06-25-2020
(06-24-2020, 01:30 AM)fsflover Wrote: >> Will both DisplayPort and HDMI Alt Mode work over the USB-C port?
> There is currently a hardware bug here: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10229 and https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10255
I added a link to the USB bug, but also linked to the YouTube video with HDMI alt mode working in a dev version of the PinePhone, and added text to say that the Librem 5 still has kernel work to get video out working.
Since the A64 doesn't support DisplayPort, can anyone explain to me how the PinePhone is getting that to work? I assume that chips were added for this, but it wasn't clear to me which chip does the conversion to DisplayPort.
> Also, I think you should mention in your post that it is not just specs that are important when you choose what to buy. Here is a good text about possible other reasons (taken from Youtube comments; hard to find a direct link):
I added a "Reasons to buy" section to the table to address these issues, which is going to get a lot of criticism, but I also set this as a wiki so people can edit it if they think it is unfair.
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - amosbatto - 06-25-2020
(06-24-2020, 04:59 AM)wibble Wrote: > 192g on my uncalibrated kitchen scales.
Thanks. I put "roughly 190 g" and linked to your post.
> No tools required to replace the battery.
Great. I added that and linked to your post.
> Any list of apps will be outdated by changes in the respective repository or app store - why not just point there instead?
I added links to the Ubuntu Touch's OpenStore and its documentation on app development and Android apps.
> On the innovations front you should probably check what was done with the OpenMoko GTA01 and GTA02 as they got there with several of them, and even then they arguably weren't first:
> * bootable from uSD
I checkeded and the OpenMoko could boot from the uSD card, but it has been a decade since then, so I'm keeping it as "Second phone maker (after OpenMoko)".
> * Multiple OS support - notably there was a NetBSD port as well as the many linux-based options. There were at least 10.
CompuLab produced a phone that supported Windows Mobile, Linux and Android, so it is probably better to not say "most OSes". Considering that the PinePhone already has 16 Linux ports, I'm changing this to "ported to the most Linux distros and most environments (7 interfaces)".
> * No firmware blobs in the main filesystem - the Atheros firmware was in a PROM on the module and wasn't user-updateable. This kept FSF happy as it's now magically 'hardware', but left the owner stuffed when a bug was found in the firmware. This is the part of RYF that I profoundly disagree with - there's a firmware blob either way, and I want the freedom to update it if I want to.
It largely depends on your priorities whether it is better to have firmware in /lib/firmware directory or stored in the component's memory. However, I think that people who care about software freedom will prefer the Redpine Signals RS9116 in the Librem 5 over the Realtek RTL8723CS in the PinePhone. The RS9113/6 is the best option available.
The larger issue is that Purism publicly aligns with the FSF, whereas PINE64 calls itself "open source", so people who care about promoting the ideals of free software will select phones based on that.
> * First convergence as PC - there wasn't much in the way of mobile interfaces at the time, so adapting desktop stuff to work on a small touchscreen was necessary. There were bits that people had done for the iPaq and early tablets.
Both Windows Mobile and Ubuntu Touch already offer convergence. Windows Mobile mostly had different software for each environment, and Ubuntu Touch started that way. Then, Ubuntu Touch evolved to allow mobile apps to adapt to be desktop apps. The innovation in the Librem 5 is going the opposite direction to allow desktop apps to adapt to be mobile apps. I changed my text to clarify this.
> * Lifetime software updates - at least I think that was the plan - in the end updates were there as long as the company was, and community support after that was possible because everything was open anyway.
I agree that the PinePhone with UBports is likely to get software updates as long as the Librem 5, but the innovation is a phone seller promising "lifetime support".
I was trying to find if any company has promised to produce a phone for 5 years on release of the phone. I can't find any examples when I do a search, so I'm going to list that as an innovation for smartphones. Apple produced a few iPhone models for 4 years and the FairPhone 2 was produced for 4 years. Benefone produced one of its phone for 11 years from 1989 to 2000.
So here are the PinePhone innovations:
- - First phone where the maker outsources all software to multiple community OS projects.
- Ported to more Linux distros and more environments (7 interfaces) than any phone ever produced.
- First phone with physical switch to convert the headphone jack into a UART serial port.
- First smartphone to promise 5 years of production.
- Second phone maker (after OpenMoko) offering booting from a microSD card.
Pretty impressive for a $150 phone.
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - megous - 06-26-2020
(06-25-2020, 12:51 PM)amosbatto Wrote: So here are the PinePhone innovations:
- - First phone where the maker outsources all software to multiple community OS projects.- Ported to more Linux distros and more environments (7 interfaces) than any phone ever produced.- First phone with physical switch to convert the headphone jack into a UART serial port.- First smartphone to promise 5 years of production.- Second phone maker (after OpenMoko) offering booting from a microSD card.
Pretty impressive for a $150 phone.
The community outsourcing and long production promise go together. It takes a really long time to get everything supported upstream in mainline linux. Years probably, at the rate the development is going now.
So it would be kind of annoying to help upstream everything (which may take 2 years still), and not being able to get the new phone afterwards.
RE: Need help updating comparison of the PinePhone vs Librem 5 specs - Dendrocalamus64 - 06-26-2020
Pinephone Braveheart: 192g on a factory-calibrated Ohaus CS 5000 scale.