(08-03-2020, 03:45 AM)wibble Wrote:

(08-01-2020, 02:37 PM)murak Wrote: Personally I think something like this is the most realistic design:

-either make a hole in the keyboard part for the camera or accept that you only can take pictures when the keyboard is out. 
-weight distribution COULD be a problem, but one would have to make a mockup to be sure. 

Lots of discussion has taken place in this thread already: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?pid=54726#pid54726

Keyboard layout is something that almost deserves its own thread. There are a lot of things to consider since only one layout will be made. I found this tool for playing with layouts: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com

I have little time right now but maybe someone can make a layout like the one in the blog post so that we have something to start working on?

I think something like that is what we'll end up with. The problem I see is the speaker being on the opposite corner of the phone to the camera, so it will always be covered in the arrangement shown. Adding an outlet to the side or bottom (or both) is possible - anyone here any good at acoustic models?

(08-03-2020, 01:37 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote: That's 108 keys. That's more than most full size desktop keyboards have. The target number of keys for a device the size of a Pinephone should probably be closer to 50.

But then, you're probably joking and I'm missing the joke.

(08-05-2020, 06:58 AM)x0r Wrote:

(08-03-2020, 01:37 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote: That's 108 keys. That's more than most full size desktop keyboards have. The target number of keys for a device the size of a Pinephone should probably be closer to 50.

But then, you're probably joking and I'm missing the joke.

You are joke not me. Look at old forum https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=7900& and UX50 sony. Old palmtop it have 54 keys (and one rotor, space, hole for rope, sound adjust etc.) and is smalest 2.5 times. No problem add metal 108 keys to pine phone too.
You just can't imagine that there are people using other alphabets :-) This is not racism, but rather a lack of imagination. These people must be very tired. Including me. ;(

I gave you an example of a real device that is comfortable and works. PinePhone sets standards, but these are hacker standards. Not corporate.

That's why people like these products so much. Because hackers do something they always wanted to have. Nobody designs terminal computers today. SSH ? nobody uses this.

I use, and many people need normal keyboard for working trought ssh.

<joke>And what do you suggest? 50 keys? But the computer only distinguishes between zero and one !</joke>

(08-05-2020, 01:36 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote:

(08-05-2020, 06:58 AM)x0r Wrote: You are joke not me. Look at old forum https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=7900& and UX50 sony. Old palmtop it have 54 keys (and one rotor, space, hole for rope, sound adjust etc.) and is smalest 2.5 times. No problem add metal 108 keys to pine phone too.
You just can't imagine that there are people using other alphabets :-) This is not racism, but rather a lack of imagination. These people must be very tired. Including me. ;(

I gave you an example of a real device that is comfortable and works. PinePhone sets standards, but these are hacker standards. Not corporate.

That's why people like these products so much. Because hackers do something they always wanted to have. Nobody designs terminal computers today. SSH ? nobody uses this.

I use, and many people need normal keyboard for working trought ssh.

<joke>And what do you suggest? 50 keys? But the computer only distinguishes between zero and one !</joke>

The UX-50 is narrower than the Pinephone, but deeper. We're talking about a slide-out keyboard here. If we have 85% of the useable area of the Clié we would be lucky. So 50 keys on a Pinephone slide-out seems quite reasonable when looking at 55 on the Clié.

(08-05-2020, 01:36 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote: What do you mean by other alphabets'? I've visited Greece and the Soviet Union back in the day.

Greeks by the way use standard US ASCII keyboards with added Greek letters on the key caps and switch between Latin and Greek modes. So I don't think the additional Greek letters would be even that popular in Greece.

(08-05-2020, 01:36 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote: When you say real device, do you mean you have used that layout at a size comparable to a Pinephone? I would be really interested to see that.

I like the design of the keyboard you propose, but Pine64 is going to produce one keyboard for the entire world and just from a purely economical point of view I highly doubt they will put their money on a Polish/Czech/Greek hybrid keyboard. Regarding ergonomics: I'm pretty sure I can type faster and more comfortable (even unusual characters) on a keyboard with 50 small keys and additional modifier keys than on one with 108 tiny keys.

Everyone will have to make some compromises, we'll be happy if we get some combining accents with Alt Gr combinations.

Why do you need 108 keys to use SSH? I don't understand that part at all.

(08-06-2020, 01:13 PM)CharlieGordon Wrote: > The UX50 has a smaller surface area when folded than the entire pinephone.

That's correct, but the Clié is a clam shell design. We're talking about a slide-out keyboard. If you look at a Nokia N900, the keyboard doesn't even use half the depth of the device. So the usable area for a Pinephone slide-out keyboard is almost certainly smaller than that of a Clié.

Even if we assume that we have some mechanical genius in this forum that will design a slide-out that can use the entire area of the Pinephone as keyboard you would have 72 Clié sized keys, not 108.

> I'm from Poland and have 32 char.

So we're still talking about the Latin alphabet. I'm from Germany and we have a 30 letter alphabet.

> You say they're all the same.

I never said that.

> And how many keys do you need to operate ssh?

i'm pretty sure I could get away with 40, maybe even less. There are lots of factors involved.

> Let's make an external or internal keyboard, but one that's comfortable. For everyone not only for you.

If you want an external keyboard like this, more power to you, but that's not what we're talking about in this thread. If you want to make a clam shell design like the Clié, great, I would actually prefer that over a slide-out keyboard, but again, this is not what this thread is about.

As I understand it, this thread isn't even about keyboard layouts at all, but about the mechanical design of a slide out mechanism. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not attacking you, your country, your language, your alphabet or your race (us poor Europeans, always getting discriminated), when I say that 108 keys are not a practical design for a tiny slide-out keyboard.

Quote:The Psion-type keyboard is still planned, but it’s heavily delayed. It would be a 100% custom design, which is difficult to design and get into production with current world travel restrictions