PINE64
Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - Printable Version

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RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - Arwen - 08-03-2020

I think this discussion has gone a bit off the rails.

Please resume practical aspects of multi-sourcing, instead of political, cultural or other reasons.

For example, practical aspects of multi-sourcing:
  • Is that if weather were to delay manufacturing or shipments from one location, another location may be un-affected.
  • Same can apply with local holidays affecting one location and not another.
Further, if a discussion were to involve moving to another location that was able to produce the items:
  • Faster, or
  • Cheaper, or
  • More reliable, or
  • Reduced shipping delays
This aspect of the discussion would be okay.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - natasha - 08-04-2020

(08-03-2020, 08:36 PM)Arwen Wrote: I think this discussion has gone a bit off the rails.

Please resume practical aspects of multi-sourcing, instead of political, cultural or other reasons.

For example, practical aspects of multi-sourcing:
  • Is that if weather were to delay manufacturing or shipments from one location, another location may be un-affected.
  • Same can apply with local holidays affecting one location and not another.
Further, if a discussion were to involve moving to another location that was able to produce the items:
  • Faster, or
  • Cheaper, or
  • More reliable, or
  • Reduced shipping delays
This aspect of the discussion would be okay.
I do not think we broke any rule ( https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=2139 )

I agree that xenophobic or disrespectful reasons do not have room in this forum.
However, ethics is an essential player for some of us when deciding to get a product.
Our society works in a way that we have to play with existing rules. Sometimes we do not like them, but if you do not play, you are out of the game. Using cheap labor in another country is nothing I like. However, if I decide to stop buying all items made in China, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam,... I will have nothing to buy. So, I have to buy it.  I hate the situation in Congo and how they make slaves and kill people to get coltan for our technology. I will do what I can to fight it, but do I have to stop using technology? In our world this is impossible.

If Pine64 makes even small steps for a more fair market, I will support it. I know this is not Pine64 goal, and I respect it too. However, if someone writes a post stepping others' rights, I will answer. Always. If this means you will kick me out of the forum, that's fine too. I will not shut up.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - Dendrocalamus64 - 08-04-2020

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(08-03-2020, 08:36 PM)Arwen Wrote: Please resume practical aspects of multi-sourcing, instead of political, cultural or other reasons.

Oh... Okay.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - LittleWalter - 08-04-2020

(08-03-2020, 08:36 PM)Arwen Wrote: I think this discussion has gone a bit off the rails.

Please resume practical aspects of multi-sourcing, instead of political, cultural or other reasons.

For example, practical aspects of multi-sourcing:
  • Is that if weather were to delay manufacturing or shipments from one location, another location may be un-affected.
  • Same can apply with local holidays affecting one location and not another.
Further, if a discussion were to involve moving to another location that was able to produce the items:
  • Faster, or
  • Cheaper, or
  • More reliable, or
  • Reduced shipping delays
This aspect of the discussion would be okay.


I should have noted to try to watch out for getting too emotional when it comes to discussion, not to mention being anti-CCP != anti-Chinese people in general.  Always keep in mind your own biases and how you tend to lean, etc.  Honestly, because of this, I'm hesitant to even bring controversial topics like this up.

However, I would strongly argue that ethics are very important in computing and oft neglected by people in this industry chasing the cheapest, fastest, outsourcing, etc.  I believe the CCP to be a problematic long-term partner.  And any company/organization with sufficient size and influence must have CCP representation; though I'm not sure how big in terms of headcount Pine64's production company/org is.  Now there are problems in my own country but at least we can voice our concerns; sorry "whatabouters."  There is no 1st Amendment in China; in fact, you can speak your mind until you become visibly problematic and then it's "tea time" with the cops.  (Don't get me started on the creepy social credit scoring system and ethnic cleansing of Muslim minorities.)



Not to get too preachy, and I'm by no means perfect, but if ethics aren't much of a concern I should probably spend more time thinking about and using competitor's products like ASUS, RPi, and HardKernel.  I'm not personally too invested in Pine64 products, so I can easily exit.  I just wanted to take the temp here and see what the waters are like.

I mean, isn't choosing FOSS-based products an ethical choice that a lot of people have around here and not just one out of pure practicality?  But sourcing hardware from an authoritarian regime isn't problematic?  Or do the people around here not really care about these issues or find it easy to rationalize?

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - z4v4l - 08-04-2020

demanding (even asking about "what if") a small enthusiast company, barely making money on their products, to handle the problem the whole world has no clue how to handle is unethical. it's just a delusional whim (the same as turning FOSS into religion and seeing there ethical stuff) out of boredom.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - LittleWalter - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 04:43 PM)z4v4l Wrote: demanding (even asking about "what if") a small enthusiast company, barely making money on their products, to handle the problem the whole world has no clue how to handle is unethical. it's just a delusional whim (the same as turning FOSS into religion and seeing there ethical stuff) out of boredom.

Gotcha, so my opinions aren't really welcome in this community then and that the "community" aspect is a joke if discussing hot-button topics is forbidden.  I am not demanding anything other than trying to understand the situation and long-term thoughts of people around here.

But I guess the minority then as per usual.  Apparently, no one even wants to really talk about it then since I don't think it's even been brought up before and Pine64 is non-profit so it's fine then.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - dieselnutjob - 08-04-2020

Would it be possible to supply some products like the excellent Pinebook Pro as a kit of parts? It's supposed to be a tinkerers machine anyway and personally I would have been okay with assembling it myself.

Pretty soon cottage industries would spring up assembling one for you and selling a complete product and so this would mean customers could support local businesses and also probably have it arrive faster and with lower import duties as well, because the import duties would only be on the parts not the whole thing.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - z4v4l - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 04:57 PM)LittleWalter Wrote: Gotcha, so my opinions aren't really welcome in this community then and that the "community" aspect is a joke if discussing hot-button topics is forbidden.
you confuse "welcome" with "yes saying". all I did, was expressed my opinion. why you made such far fetched conclusions is left to you to decide.
the "community" aspect here, is in the scope of the relevant and possible, is it this hard to get? and saying it's a "joke" in relation to Pine, given how many times they proved they listen to people is disrespectful.

Quote:I am not demanding anything other than trying to understand the situation and long-term thoughts of people around here.
please, what "to understand" here? it's impossible due to practical reasons, that's all. natasha said above - she keeps using electronics even knowing how horrible the conditions in african mines are, because she has no choice. that pretty much outlined it all. why did you think Pine is more powerful, than natasha or me or you? it's not apple, dude.

Quote:But I guess the minority then as per usual. Apparently, no one even wants to really talk about it then since I don't think it's even been brought up before and Pine64 is non-profit so it's fine then.
everybody wants peace, rainbow, total hapiness for the whole world etc, don't want to disappoint you, but you are not the only one, wanting good for all the humanity. it's another thing - unlike you, most over here, do realize that it's an empty talk. regarding results. because of the reason, mentioned above, so bringing it up or participating in it is just an ordinary forum flood, littering the forum database.

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - daniel - 08-04-2020

(08-04-2020, 12:08 PM)natasha Wrote:
(08-03-2020, 08:36 PM)Arwen Wrote: I think this discussion has gone a bit off the rails.

Please resume practical aspects of multi-sourcing, instead of political, cultural or other reasons.

For example, practical aspects of multi-sourcing:
  • Is that if weather were to delay manufacturing or shipments from one location, another location may be un-affected.
  • Same can apply with local holidays affecting one location and not another.
Further, if a discussion were to involve moving to another location that was able to produce the items:
  • Faster, or
  • Cheaper, or
  • More reliable, or
  • Reduced shipping delays
This aspect of the discussion would be okay.
I do not think we broke any rule ( https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=2139 )

I agree that xenophobic or disrespectful reasons do not have room in this forum.
However, ethics is an essential player for some of us when deciding to get a product.
Our society works in a way that we have to play with existing rules. Sometimes we do not like them, but if you do not play, you are out of the game. Using cheap labor in another country is nothing I like. However, if I decide to stop buying all items made in China, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam,... I will have nothing to buy. So, I have to buy it.  I hate the situation in Congo and how they make slaves and kill people to get coltan for our technology. I will do what I can to fight it, but do I have to stop using technology? In our world this is impossible.

If Pine64 makes even small steps for a more fair market, I will support it. I know this is not Pine64 goal, and I respect it too. However, if someone writes a post stepping others' rights, I will answer. Always. If this means you will kick me out of the forum, that's fine too. I will not shut up.

Bravo! 100% support!

RE: Discussion of Moving Production Outside of China - Arwen - 08-05-2020

Relax everyone.

I am not suggesting to stop free speech, just understand that Pine64 is in essence a partnership with a Chinese company. Pine64 has made no secret where the products are made.

Ethical concerns are certainly an issue, and each person can make their own decision on the mater.


Moderator hat off:
I too wish the world was a bit more "fair". In practical aspects, it will take time. Sometimes generations. Yes, an individual can "vote" with her/his pocket book, it just will take a great many pocket books to make somethings change in the short term. Some places have already changed, (I won't get into specifics because each specific item in itself will launch a whole discussion.)

In the case of the Raspberry Pi moving assembly from China to Wales, (aka Briton), that was simpler in most ways. They originally had 1 small board, without battery, display, keyboard, or case. They were able to get a "local" company's excess manufacturing capacity used to make RPi's. Adding different small boards later was no real issue, again no serious external hardware. Plus, 100% of the engineering of RPi's was already in England.


Moderator hat on:
So, discussing changes, (because of ethics or other reason), calmly, and stating what you would like to see different, is okay.

Blaming other people for having different ethics or behavior, or using emotional extortion is not acceptable. (I mention no names because it's not relevant yet.)

I will not be joining in this discussion, (regardless of any personal beliefs).