RE: Spontaneous numlock - dsimic - 04-21-2021
(04-21-2021, 04:49 AM)KC9UDX Wrote: I'm wondering, if this is on the main board, how is it proprietary to the keyboard and touchpad?
That's a good question. I'd say that putting the controller chip off-keyboard was a space-saving measure. The intention of the keyboard designers was surely to make the keyboard as thin and flat as possible. Placing a small PCB with the controller chip somewhere inside the keyboard would have surely resulted in a bulge, increasing the overall/maximum thickness of the keyboard.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - ab1jx - 04-21-2021
There seem to be 8 different USB buses on board, the keyboard is on 3. It's also a Human Interface Device which I think means it runs a server and can have subdevices. It figures, there are 3 types of external USB connectors plus the camera and keyboard have their own buses..
Code: Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
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bcdUSB 3.00
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Endpoint Descriptor:
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Self Powered
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
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Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
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Bus 007 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
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Device Descriptor:
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Hub Port Status:
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Self Powered
Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0c45:6321 Microdia HP Integrated Webcam
Device Descriptor:
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bcdUSB 2.00
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(Bus Powered)
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Interface Descriptor:
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VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
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VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
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Warning: Descriptor too short
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Hue
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NTSC - 525/60
PAL - 625/50
SECAM - 625/50
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Endpoint Descriptor:
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Interface Descriptor:
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VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
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Interface Descriptor:
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Endpoint Descriptor:
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Bus 002 Device 002: ID 05e3:0608 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Device Descriptor:
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Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
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Bus 003 Device 002: ID 258a:001e HAILUCK CO.,LTD USB KEYBOARD
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HID Device Descriptor:
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Report Descriptors:
** UNAVAILABLE **
Endpoint Descriptor:
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Report Descriptors:
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(Bus Powered)
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
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Configuration Descriptor:
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RE: Spontaneous numlock - dsimic - 04-21-2021
All USB keyboards belong to the USB human interface device (HID) class of USB devices.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - ab1jx - 04-21-2021
Hee-hee, I've been following and wishing I had an 8051 to play with. I look down at a pile of junk boards beside me and there's an 8052. Came out of some junk printer I think years ago. 256 byes of RAM. Now my chances of unsoldering a 40-pin DIP and having it still work, well, not so great. Genuine Intel with a 1989 date code. I could build a front panel for it and pretend it's an Altair. Who knows.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - dsimic - 04-21-2021
Good old times. These days, eight 5 GHz cores and 16 GB of RAM is what's needed to display bloated websites.
Edit: Actually, the datasheet for the SH68F83 keyboard controller is available. Have a look at the page 54, for example; it shows a reference keyboard design.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - KC9UDX - 04-21-2021
Yep, and they run half the speed than they did on computers a quarter as fast just a few years ago.
I had forgot* that all this stuff was USB. That's probably a good reason for the code size. Although if the disassembly above is correct, there's probably just a ton of bloat, as must be expected these days. No doubt the source is hundreds of megabytes of C++.
What I was thinking about the location of the chip above, is that if it was proprietary from the manufacturer, I'd expect it to be on a separate board. It just seems odd to me to supply proprietary code for the end user to run on their own processor. It also seems odd to me to use USB in this case, but I suppose that makes sense from a modern software perspective.
*not that I didn't know, but just can't get used to using so much bloat from a hardware design perspective.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - dsimic - 04-21-2021
(04-21-2021, 04:36 PM)KC9UDX Wrote: I had forgot* that all this stuff was USB. That's probably a good reason for the code size. Although if the disassembly above is correct, there's probably just a ton of bloat, as must be expected these days. No doubt the source is hundreds of megabytes of C++.
*not that I didn't know, but just can't get used to using so much bloat from a hardware design perspective.
It would be really interesting to see the original source code of the keyboard and touchpad firmware. There's even some helper firmware image, which gets flashed to the keyboard in the first step, and serves to update the keyboard and the touchpad to their final firmware images in the second step. Perhaps the source code isn't C++, and not in the range of hundreds of MBs, but it surely is a mix of various licensed libraries, cobbled together so they barely work.
I was also disgusted when the USB keyboards started replacing PS/2 keyboards. Why replacing a good, dedicated interface? However, convenience trumps everything, and for the most people it's convenient to have only one port type (i.e. USB) for all peripherals.
(04-21-2021, 04:36 PM)KC9UDX Wrote: What I was thinking about the location of the chip above, is that if it was proprietary from the manufacturer, I'd expect it to be on a separate board. It just seems odd to me to supply proprietary code for the end user to run on their own processor. It also seems odd to me to use USB in this case, but I suppose that makes sense from a modern software perspective.
Actually, the SH68F83 controller isn't proprietary to the keyboard manufacturer, as you can see in the datasheet I've linked in my previous post. The keyboard and the keyboard controller are made by two different manufacturers, which was probably a measure to cut the cost down. Also, I don't think that the PineBook Pro keyboard was made specifically for the PineBook Pro; I'd say that it's a generic design that's been just tweaked a bit to fit the PineBook Pro.
See also this very good description of the PineBook Pro keyboard and touchpad hardware.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - KC9UDX - 04-22-2021
I know the chip isn't proprietary, but the software it runs, which makes the keyboard work, is. It's probably normal these days, just odd to me that a keyboard manufacturer would supply software for you to run outside of the product they deliver.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - ab1jx - 04-23-2021
From working with USB 2832 SDR dongles I've come to see the USB as just a layer. librtlsdr handles the usblib stuff and you get to the data behind it like it wasn't connected by USB. Now I've got a USB DVD drive, printer, hard drives and SSDs (in adapters), cameras. Only Apple could design a connector that you have a 50% chance of trying to plug in upside down though. And microusb connectors are standard power connectors on cell phones. All of my internet comes through a microusb cable that tethers a phone to a regular USB jack on a Raspberry Pi which is powered through another microusb.
I guess I didn't realize that the keyboard firmware was a proprietary blob, I never agreed not to disassemble it. Having worked with 8088 code (25 years ago) the 8051 looks like a simpler version. If you search for 8051 in Debian debs you can find assemblers and dissasemblers, there's even a specialized IDE that comes with another assembler. With the 8-write limit you can't do much playing around though.
RE: Spontaneous numlock - KC9UDX - 04-24-2021
I don't think Apple had any say in the design of USB connectors. I thought that was mainly Intel with input from DEC. Apple of course eventually made the symmetrical lightning connector, which I wish would replace USB. It is inherently much stronger than the USB-C connector.
I don't know what the licencing might be like for the firmware. But it is closed source.
I yoostaby fluent in 8086. I fully abandoned that when it became obvious that Windows 95 was the future. I couldn't put together three lines of 8086 today. It is my opinion, right or wrong, that if we're going to have a fully functional keyboard and a touchpad without serious hysteresis, someone is going to have to write the firmware from scratch in 8051. If I had the time to invest in writing that, I'd spend it to reverse engineer the hardware and replace the microcontroller with a 65c816 and support, which wouldn't be helpful to anyone but myself, unfortunately.
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