Forum Revamp
#11
(04-17-2016, 03:48 PM)androsch Wrote:
(04-17-2016, 03:18 PM)Ghost Wrote: As I've said elsewhere, this forum could do with someone maintaining it full-time. Whereas when I began answering questions on the original kickstarter campaign comments section I had a bunch of free time, now my actual job and other commitments gets in the way of dropping by here so often, and every time I do come back, the same issues and questions are repeated over and over, often in new threads, creating a multiplicity of essentially identical threads.

I want to help out around here, I do, but I'm not sure I'm the right person to be attempting to put the forum back in order (the incorrect moving of that UART thread (regardless of reason) being case in point) on my own.

I didn't mean you personally had to do the job, but somebody has to. It has to be an essential interest for the Pine64 guys to provide accurate and actual information for the backers. I dont know who set up this forum or works as mod, but at the moment this KS project is turning into a disaster if more and more people receive their board and aren't able to use it because of inaccurate and outdated information from various sources and websites.

Gesendet von meinem K00L mit Tapatalk

Heh, no worries, I think I was just trying to exonerate myself of any responsibility. 

TL Lim has said this week will be spent working on the wiki and forum, including putting together a quick start guide, so that's good. It really needs more than one Pine64 employee regularly here helping out on this forum, though. It is in their best interests to support their product as best they can.
#12
I have posted a useful threads sticky and a quickstart guide sticky (until such time as an official one pops up), in accordance with some of the advice offered here. Please continue to submit ideas and suggestions for improving the forum. Thanks.
#13
(04-17-2016, 09:22 PM)Ghost Wrote: I have posted a useful threads sticky and a quickstart guide sticky (until such time as an official one pops up), in accordance with some of the advice offered here. Please continue to submit ideas and suggestions for improving the forum. Thanks.

Thx, you (or anyone still interested in improving the quality of documentation here) should also use some links to 'resolved' threads where people report that their 'genuine' cards are fake cards or tried a smart charger just to realize that the "2.4A" written on it do not apply to the Pine64 since this device only gets 500mA and will never boot or that they simply weren't patient enough and simply interrupted the burn process which obviously will result in a bricked board later.

http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?t...58#pid4458 (using such a fake card you will succeed burning a Linux image that will later fail and you will always immediately fail with an Android image since here Phoenix Card already 'detects' the fake and stops with an Error, I explained that many times in the meantime and won't spend any time on this any longer)

EDIT: I tried to explain the issue one more time (to be able to link to): http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=681
#14
Sounds like a great idea, and I agree with what tkaiser said above about fakes/power supplies etc.

In the early days of the pi there was a wiki page that listed good sd cards and bad ones, could we have something similar to that here or on the wiki?
Thats not to say that a good branded card may not work either (64GB or 128GB cards?) so having a list that users can look over before they order would offer some piece of mind.

In a similar vein, it seems due to the P64 needing a bit more juice; and potentially decent quality juice, just having a 2.4a marked on a psu somewhere may not be the be all and end all.
#15
(04-18-2016, 03:02 AM)damikeh Wrote: In the early days of the pi there was a wiki page that listed good sd cards and bad ones, could we have something similar to that here or on the wiki?

That's useless since counterfeit cards exist and people are happily fooling themselves trying to make 'a good deal' (buying that nice non existing fake 256GB card on Aliexpress for $20). Please read through this first: http://www.happybison.com/reviews/how-to...sd-card-8/

There's no alternative to test the cards directly after purchase to ensure you got a real and not a fake card. And all performance numbers published for SD cards are problematic since there are only 4 vendors out there that manufacture their cards using their NAND dies and their controllers (if you buy Kingston, PNY and the like you never know what you really get). Please compare with http://forum.armbian.com/index.php/topic...rformance/ (all performance numbers are valid for Pine64 since the board also implements only the slowest SDIO mode)
#16
(04-18-2016, 12:46 AM)tkaiser Wrote:
(04-17-2016, 09:22 PM)Ghost Wrote: I have posted a useful threads sticky and a quickstart guide sticky (until such time as an official one pops up), in accordance with some of the advice offered here. Please continue to submit ideas and suggestions for improving the forum. Thanks.

Thx, you (or anyone still interested in improving the quality of documentation here) should also use some links to 'resolved' threads where people report that their 'genuine' cards are fake cards or tried a smart charger just to realize that the "2.4A" written on it do not apply to the Pine64 since this device only gets 500mA and will never boot or that they simply weren't patient enough and simply interrupted the burn process which obviously will result in a bricked board later.

http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?t...58#pid4458 (using such a fake card you will succeed burning a Linux image that will later fail and you will always immediately fail with an Android image since here Phoenix Card already 'detects' the fake and stops with an Error, I explained that many times in the meantime and won't spend any time on this any longer)

EDIT: I tried to explain the issue one more time (to be able to link to): http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=681

This info will be included on the newbie need to know list that we plan to published on this week.
#17
(04-18-2016, 03:32 AM)tkaiser Wrote:
(04-18-2016, 03:02 AM)damikeh Wrote: In the early days of the pi there was a wiki page that listed good sd cards and bad ones, could we have something similar to that here or on the wiki?

That's useless since counterfeit cards exist and people are happily fooling themselves trying to make 'a good deal' (buying that nice non existing fake 256GB card on Aliexpress for $20). Please read through this first: http://www.happybison.com/reviews/how-to...sd-card-8/
I didn't mean fake cards, i meant REAL cards assuming people don't cheap out and get them off ebay and the like and expect that that £2.99 64GB card WILL work. I'm not catering for fools. 
What I DO mean is, actual cards that have been deemed working, as I'm sure not ALL 64GB or 128GB cards WILL work.
The PSU one would also be useful, with links if possible
#18
(04-19-2016, 01:14 AM)damikeh Wrote:
(04-18-2016, 03:32 AM)tkaiser Wrote:
(04-18-2016, 03:02 AM)damikeh Wrote: In the early days of the pi there was a wiki page that listed good sd cards and bad ones, could we have something similar to that here or on the wiki?

That's useless since counterfeit cards exist and people are happily fooling themselves trying to make 'a good deal' (buying that nice non existing fake 256GB card on Aliexpress for $20). Please read through this first: http://www.happybison.com/reviews/how-to...sd-card-8/
I didn't mean fake cards, i meant REAL cards assuming people don't cheap out and get them off ebay and the like and expect that that £2.99 64GB card WILL work. I'm not catering for fools. 
What I DO mean is, actual cards that have been deemed working, as I'm sure not ALL 64GB or 128GB cards WILL work.
The PSU one would also be useful, with links if possible

But the problem is that you get fake cards from every retailer out there (see the 'On counterfeit SD cards' info). The other problem is that if you really have a look into the SD card business you quickly come to the conclusion that you only want to buy SD cards from vendors that run their own NAND factories, that produce their own controllers and combine both to retail products. And then you already end up with exactly 4 manufacturers out there: 2 names start with S, the other 2 with T.

If you then have a look at the Pine64' SDIO implementation (sequential transfer speeds max out at ~22/23 MB/s), keep in mind that on SBCs random I/O is more important, then have a look at recent research on performance in this area (please have a look at the collective benchmarking done here), then you end up with 2 different card types you could recommend (either normal Samsung EVO or EVO+ or SanDisk Extreme Plus when you also care about maximum longevity).

Regarding 64GB cards it's easy: choose EVO/EVO+, regarding 128GB or larger it's also easy: If you don't need maximum mobility better think about combining a small SD card with any USB solution for the same price (again: random I/O is more important -- something no one wants to realise that an SBC is different than a digital camera where only the 'speed class' matters) and in case you try to make any 'good deal' you get a fake card anyway. 64GB is the reasonable maximum at the moment. That might change in half a year.

Regarding PSUs most people forget the cable between PSU and board: High resistance --> low fun (since voltage drops will lead to stability issues or a 'bricked' board. Looking at amperage ratings is pretty useless if you forget the voltage drop issue -- won't repeat it again, there are already a couple of posts here that outlined that)

In case anyone wants to add that to some sort of documentation: Feel free to do so. Since none of the above is Pine64 specific but applies to other SBC as well and other/better ressources already exist, time to stop here.
#19
(04-18-2016, 12:46 AM)tkaiser Wrote:
(04-17-2016, 09:22 PM)Ghost Wrote: I have posted a useful threads sticky and a quickstart guide sticky (until such time as an official one pops up), in accordance with some of the advice offered here. Please continue to submit ideas and suggestions for improving the forum. Thanks.

Thx, you (or anyone still interested in improving the quality of documentation here) should also use some links to 'resolved' threads where people report that their 'genuine' cards are fake cards or tried a smart charger just to realize that the "2.4A" written on it do not apply to the Pine64 since this device only gets 500mA and will never boot or that they simply weren't patient enough and simply interrupted the burn process which obviously will result in a bricked board later.

http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?t...58#pid4458 (using such a fake card you will succeed burning a Linux image that will later fail and you will always immediately fail with an Android image since here Phoenix Card already 'detects' the fake and stops with an Error, I explained that many times in the meantime and won't spend any time on this any longer)

EDIT: I tried to explain the issue one more time (to be able to link to): http://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=681
The fake SD card, SD card performance, power supply include smart charger, and power cable topic will be mentioned, thanks on your contribution and will link to your provided link and info. We will open a wiki moderator "guest" account for 1-2 weeks time, so that forum users can contribute and help to make the topic more understandable. We also welcome forum users that interest to maintain the wiki page by providing moderator status. All "active" moderators will get current and upcoming Pine64 products free of charge including worldwide shipping so that they can continue help up on forum and wiki site.
Sorry on our sloppiness and cause a lot of unnecessary efforts on keep repeating and answering same questions.
#20
(04-19-2016, 04:42 AM)tkaiser Wrote: But the problem is that you get fake cards from every retailer out there (see the 'On counterfeit SD cards' info). The other problem is that if you really have a look into the SD card business you quickly come to the conclusion that you only want to buy SD cards from vendors that run their own NAND factories, that produce their own controllers and combine both to retail products. And then you already end up with exactly 4 manufacturers out there: 2 names start with S, the other 2 with T.

If you then have a look at the Pine64' SDIO implementation (sequential transfer speeds max out at ~22/23 MB/s), keep in mind that on SBCs random I/O is more important, then have a look at recent research on performance in this area (please have a look at the collective benchmarking done here), then you end up with 2 different card types you could recommend (either normal Samsung EVO or EVO+ or SanDisk Extreme Plus when you also care about maximum longevity).

Regarding 64GB cards it's easy: choose EVO/EVO+, regarding 128GB or larger it's also easy: If you don't need maximum mobility better think about combining a small SD card with any USB solution for the same price (again: random I/O is more important -- something no one wants to realise that an SBC is different than a digital camera where only the 'speed class' matters) and in case you try to make any 'good deal' you get a fake card anyway. 64GB is the reasonable maximum at the moment. That might change in half a year.

Regarding PSUs most people forget the cable between PSU and board: High resistance --> low fun (since voltage drops will lead to stability issues or a 'bricked' board. Looking at amperage ratings is pretty useless if you forget the voltage drop issue -- won't repeat it again, there are already a couple of posts here that outlined that)

In case anyone wants to add that to some sort of documentation: Feel free to do so. Since none of the above is Pine64 specific but applies to other SBC as well and other/better ressources already exist, time to stop here.
Just to reiterate some of the most important things here. 
But the problem is that you get fake cards from every retailer out there
Yes, you can get fakes from Amazon, Newegg, Best Buy, Walmart, just about anywhere because most of these companies buy from a middle man to get the best prices possible and you never know where that middle man got his last shovel full of microSD from. 

Pine64' SDIO implementation (sequential transfer speeds max out at ~22/23 MB/s)
No point in going crazy and buying a 2,999X transfer rate card. If all you can let through if 5gallons per hour, there is no reason to have the city come out and hook up a 22" water main, you will never see any benefit. 

most people forget the cable between PSU and board
I was part of a kickstarter years back for a usb power meter, it measured current use by measuring the voltage drop across a resistor. Not uncommon practice. Unfortunately the voltage drop caused the phone I was using back then to drop into a slow charge mode, because if it saw a voltage below 5v it assumed it was pulling too much current from the charger causing a voltage drop and was over stressing the charger so it would drop its current demands. Myself and another person were able to duplicate this finding using cheap usb cables in place of that meter. 

And I have said it before and I will say it again. A phone charger is NOT a power supply. It may meet the ratings needed for voltage and current but most use some form of smart signaling and the Pine will not talk to them. Ever. A good 12v 2A power supply should cost you less than $15. Old laptop and external hard drive power supplies can be a great find, pawn shops, flea markets, etc if you are really cheap. Then spend a few bucks on a good DC-DC adjustable supply, my current favorite is this style http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM2596-USB-DC-DC...1833093030 I have been using one with my pine since day 1 and its been flawless.

If you cant boot your Pine, the first two things folks are going to ask about are power and sd. If you are unwilling to put your own devices under scrutiny, maybe you should just read. Running the SD card checks is easy, and doesnt take all that long.


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