Linus Torvalds using M2 Macbook Air running Linux
#11
(08-31-2022, 12:22 PM)commiecam Wrote: That's the reason I have a Pinebook Pro.  Quiet! No fan.  As far as what you NEED, I suggest that a whole lot of people consider what they really NEED.  I'm not talking about extreme gamers, who live and die, vicariously on cpu power.  The computer aboard the Apollo modules that went to the moon would today be put to shame by any cheap pocket calcuulator.  I did my college papers on green on black terminal hooked to a HP-1000 computer with a 32 bit cpu running at about 1MHz, with 3.3 MB of RAM... WHILE it was also acting as our station's data collector and network hub, while being used by six other staff as well  All I'm saying is that seldom, if ever, is a cpu in any modern computer being run much above idling.  The first novel that I wrote, Caribbean Ventures, was written on an early, used Pentium llaptop running Red Hat and I used the vi editor.  No 440 cubic inch V8, no tailfins, no sound system.  Now I can do the same work in a good word processor on a colour screen while listening to classical music while news headlines run across the bottom of the screen, and all for $219.00.

The problem is that modern software got bloated and slow, technically the Pinebook OG should be more than good enough running the right software. I did use my Pine Tab to build a few pieces of software that currently run in production, by using a lightweight window manager and stripped out browser.

So the point is, if you want to run modern software, and modern software is written to use all resources available to it, then unless your machine has similar resources to that of the average machine, it will simply fall short. To my original point, even if they developed a Pinebook Pro Ultra, it would just be a matter of time before it is obsolete again.

This is why i suggest upgrade-able and maintainable systems being the way forwards. The ability to swap out the mainboard SBC/module would really be a game changer.
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#12
(09-01-2022, 01:19 PM)barray Wrote: The ability to swap out the mainboard SBC/module would really be a game changer.

I agree. That is what Framework has done. However they are only providing motherboards Intel 12th gen P series, which run super hot.

People keep asking them to switch to AMD or ARM but they aren't budging.

Perhaps what Pine64 should do is, make a motherboard for the Framework laptop that includes a more reasonable CPU. Maybe the octacore Rockchip RK3588?
This could expand the market for Pine's products.

The Framework laptop design is quite nice, good screen, good keyboard etc.
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#13
(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote:
(09-01-2022, 01:19 PM)barray Wrote: The ability to swap out the mainboard SBC/module would really be a game changer.

I agree. That is what Framework has done. However they are only providing motherboards Intel 12th gen P series, which run super hot.

People keep asking them to switch to AMD or ARM but they aren't budging.

Perhaps what Pine64 should do is, make a motherboard for the Framework laptop that includes a more reasonable CPU. Maybe the octacore Rockchip RK3588?
This could expand the market for Pine's products.

The Framework laptop design is quite nice, good screen, good keyboard etc.
Frankly,m at $1049 list price, Framework can put their laptop where the sun don't shine. I'd much rather buy a refurbished Panasonic Toughbook-- something that is physically strong enough to outlast a half dozen CPU upgrades.  Also it might be a better target for a Pine64 upgrade board.  From a toughbooks4less.com ad:    Panasonic Toughbook CF-31 MK3 - i5 2.6Ghz - 500GB HDD - Touch (Refurbished - 2-4 Week Lead Time)
$585.00
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#14
(09-02-2022, 04:27 AM)commiecam Wrote: Frankly,m at $1049 list price, Framework can put their laptop where the sun don't shine. I'd much rather buy a refurbished Panasonic Toughbook-- something that is physically strong enough to outlast a half dozen CPU upgrades.  Also it might be a better target for a Pine64 upgrade board.  From a toughbooks4less.com ad:    Panasonic Toughbook CF-31 MK3 - i5 2.6Ghz - 500GB HDD - Touch (Refurbished - 2-4 Week Lead Time)
$585.00

It's OK to be frank. The people at Framebook unfortunately are consistently imperviousness to good ideas. I've read that many of them come from Apple, so who knows, perhaps they just assume they know what is true and good.
I used to live near a place that refurbished Toughbooks, but I didn't spring for one. They seemed a bit too pricey.
I have however bought quite a few Thinkpads off-lease back in the day, from a place that had a steady supply.
Recently I noticed that Dell has their own "tough" laptop. I would have to see it and try it before commiting to the high price tag.
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#15
I know this sounds dumb, but if the pinebook isn't a powerful enough system it can ssh into a very powerful one (servers). That's actually what I have, a home lab full desktop pc cooled with a huge heatsink at home, with a couple arm sbcs (soon some riscv sbcs if i can even get linux working). I connect to it with a vpn, that has pihole, so I have access to multiple different pcs with different architectures and distros/OS.

not really a good idea for gaming with this, because latency, and i don't know any fast desktop streaming client on pinebook (wished steam link works on pinebook, only for raspberry pi). but it is really cool.
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#16
(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote:
(09-01-2022, 01:19 PM)barray Wrote: The ability to swap out the mainboard SBC/module would really be a game changer.

I agree. That is what Framework has done. However they are only providing motherboards Intel 12th gen P series, which run super hot.

People keep asking them to switch to AMD or ARM but they aren't budging.

Perhaps what Pine64 should do is, make a motherboard for the Framework laptop that includes a more reasonable CPU. Maybe the octacore Rockchip RK3588?
This could expand the market for Pine's products.

The Framework laptop design is quite nice, good screen, good keyboard etc.



Upgradability would be good esp. on a device such as the pinebook pro. Even some small "trap-doors" underneath would have made things easier; as it stands sometimes on the pinebook pro if you're installing from scratch it can mean having to open up the computer just to install an OS. 

But if not being able to upgrade by changing a motherboard maybe a modular approach with (say) the CPU under a trap door so it could be removed and upgraded. Ditto for RAM as well although I guess this would all just bump up the price.

As for things being slow and with regards to browsers pretty much one reason why browsing can be so slow today is because of the horribly over-bloated websites that exist today. That and those websites bring along multitudes of scripts all of which apparently "need" to run and all doing who knows what. It all slows things down to a crawl.

ljones
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#17
(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote: I agree. That is what Framework has done. However they are only providing motherboards Intel 12th gen P series, which run super hot.

Ouch. Pinebooks will also suffer this is they are not careful. To be completely honest, I think some kind of optional fan could be quite good. At the very least the device should last longer.

(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote: People keep asking them to switch to AMD or ARM but they aren't budging.

I think it takes a tonne of investment to switch CPU arch. Also they are likely experts on Intel, sticking to what they know.

(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote: Perhaps what Pine64 should do is, make a motherboard for the Framework laptop that includes a more reasonable CPU. Maybe the octacore Rockchip RK3588?
This could expand the market for Pine's products.

I think they should all just be simply running on standardized parts. SBCs for example are so close to being standardized.

(09-01-2022, 07:56 PM)orbital Wrote: The Framework laptop design is quite nice, good screen, good keyboard etc.

Yeah I agree, their laptops are very well polished.

(09-02-2022, 04:27 AM)commiecam Wrote: Frankly,m at $1049 list price, Framework can put their laptop where the sun don't shine. I'd much rather buy a refurbished Panasonic Toughbook-- something that is physically strong enough to outlast a half dozen CPU upgrades.  Also it might be a better target for a Pine64 upgrade board.  From a toughbooks4less.com ad:    Panasonic Toughbook CF-31 MK3 - i5 2.6Ghz - 500GB HDD - Touch (Refurbished - 2-4 Week Lead Time)
$585.00

That thing is a tank disguised as a laptop. I think we need to agree that a laptop needs to actually be capable of sitting on your lap, otherwise it is a desktop that has a keyboard and monitor attached (not too unlike those all-in-one devices).

(09-05-2022, 04:52 PM)ljones Wrote: Upgradability would be good esp. on a device such as the pinebook pro. Even some small "trap-doors" underneath would have made things easier; as it stands sometimes on the pinebook pro if you're installing from scratch it can mean having to open up the computer just to install an OS. 

Don't get me started on the PineTab, you basically have a non-zero chance of cracking the display every time you open that 10 INCH CLAM-SHELL (someone was high designing this). I thought the idea of these devices was to create something that could be hacked on by developers - why make the thing risky to open? I was always in favour of changing to M1/M2 screws and threaded inserts.

(09-05-2022, 04:52 PM)ljones Wrote: But if not being able to upgrade by changing a motherboard maybe a modular approach with (say) the CPU under a trap door so it could be removed and upgraded. Ditto for RAM as well although I guess this would all just bump up the price.

The CPU would take serious effort to make removable, and I'm not sure you can swap out soldered RAM and removable RAM so easily. I desperately want to see ARM devices with replaceable DDR RAM, but not sure this would be any time soon.

(09-05-2022, 04:52 PM)ljones Wrote: As for things being slow and with regards to browsers pretty much one reason why browsing can be so slow today is because of the horribly over-bloated websites that exist today. That and those websites bring along multitudes of scripts all of which apparently "need" to run and all doing who knows what. It all slows things down to a crawl.

The modern web simply sucks. It was better when everybody had bad hardware. Now unless you have the latest and greatest hardware/software, and you restart your computer several times a day, there is no way you will have a stable experience.

Today I found out I can't setup 2FA because my phone isn't Android 99 or whatever, and I cannot use this service without 2FA, because I can't be trusted to make long and hard to crack passwords - but a low paid telecom worker can be trusted not to sell SIM card access. It's like we ended up in the alternate Universe where everything is bad on purpose. /rant
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#18
(09-05-2022, 03:54 PM)computerc Wrote: I know this sounds dumb, but if the pinebook isn't a powerful enough system it can ssh into a very powerful one (servers). That's actually what I have, a home lab full desktop pc cooled with a huge heatsink at home, with a couple arm sbcs (soon some riscv sbcs if i can even get linux working). I connect to it with a vpn, that has pihole, so I have access to multiple different pcs with different architectures and distros/OS.
 

Since my main computer has been a Raspberry pi4 for the last 2 years, I've had to use Amazon AWS as my "powerful" server from time to time when I want to work on my Android apps.

Problem is, the latency and bandwidth and shared server all conspire to make Android Studio painfully slow even on a fast AWS server.

(09-05-2022, 05:48 PM)barray Wrote: I think it takes a tonne of investment to switch CPU arch. Also they are likely experts on Intel, sticking to what they know.

Yes but they aren't even offering the lower wattage variants, like the 15W i5-1235U or the 9W i7-1250U.
So many laptop makers are out of touch these days, they just assume users will accept loud fans or failing that, reconfigure the OS to make the CPU run slowly.
The moment I think one company has finally "gotten it", I learn they're doing something stupid like putting Pluton in the laptops.
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