July Community Update discussion
#41
@Luke  @tllim

Any chance of an update on the progress of the sales  ?              ( hundreds per day ? )

Any chance of selling out of these  ?
  You did mention pre-orders will likely remain open for up to a month and a half....  So is it possible orders will still be open when the first phones are starting to ship  ?

Waiting is still hard,  I ordered the ISO PBP,  then the Brave Heart phone and ANSI PBP,    Now the Convergence Package PMOS phone.
  But News helps to ease the waiting.

These are revision 1.2a  main board,     correct ?

Thank you,  BC
  Reply
#42
Hi :-)

Just wanted to tune in and try to move the focus a bit because it feels to me that this discussion about company processes is going nowhere.

Pine64 is a very specific type of organisation.
Whether or not @Jazzbandor anyone else's recommendations are helpful for processing large amounts of unhappy customers are not relevant.
Pine64 will look at the recommendations, look at their philosophy and then rightfully ignore the recommendation - because it doesn't align with the company goals.
First sentence: It's a community platform.
The moment you become a customer, you become part of the community.
The community can influence how a device is made available and, yes, that includes taking care of problems - luckily.

But that doesn't mean an unhappy customer has the right to tell any other member of the community how they should be doing their job!
Pine64 is very open about the problems they're facing and is open to solutions at any time.

@Jazzband, you're suggesting that a group of enthusiasts working to produce affordable and open hardware put in extra work and money to deal with - i'm sorry for being so deprecative - troublemakers.
You want to buy a Samsung phone on amazon. It isn't LIBRE, it exploits basically everyone involved in bringing it to your doorstep, and it includes a premium for extended stock, customer care - all that stuff you're asking for.
Again, sorry for being so deprecative. If you experience mental pain from delays because of unforeseen events, you shouldn't be buying anything from pine64.

If any process need to be implemented, it's probably that customers should be asked explicitly to confirm that they understand what pine64 will and will not do for them.
Mabye a questionaire ("Do you understand that your phone is being manufactured for you?", "Do you understand that pine64 doesn't keep huge reserves of phones for when a global pandemic slows down the manufacturing process?").
Or perhaps the word "store" misleads people into thinking pine64 is a company like apple?

It's becoming less and less surprising to see how few people actually inform themselves about the stuff they buy and where they buy it from.
What keeps surprising me is how convinced they are about being in any position to make demands when they're behaving like pricks.
And that's the reason i'm making this post: To provide a clear counter-reaction.

Now about the suggestions:

(07-18-2020, 12:15 PM)Jazzband Wrote: [outsourcing the 1st line of support, scaling]

That doesn't fit the company model. The price is kept close to the costs of manufacturing + handling.
Answering questions from people who can't be bothered to follow the collaborative work, read the news blog, or read about the company isn't part of manufacturing or handling.


Quote:["unexpected" things could've been easily predicted and mitigated]

Granted, there are things that businesses can do to somehow mitigate these kinds of problems but it comes at a price.
Planning for the unexpectable is not something any business can do. All you can do is get an insurance.


Quote:customers' expectations of Pine64: [Pine fulfill their obligations, provide warranty service, have shipping figured out, ...] Yet somehow we, the customers, are not allowed to have the same level of expectations of Pine64. No, we're just "impatient", "unreasonable" and "entitled".



You're not impatient, you're ignorant.
Of the fact that the company and the product don't allow for the kind of measures you're asking for.
You're not entitled, you're presumptuous.
If this was what you were looking for in pine64, why didn't you check beforehand?
I honestly believe that if you had checked out what kind of company pine64 is, you wouldn't have to make snarky comments on these forums.

You act like you know what's important for a business to serve customers like you.
Go start your own!
You already have a potential customer.

Quote:Finally, the fact that your expectations of Pine64 are lower than mine doesn't automatically mean that my expectations are somehow unreasonable or "warped".

Your expectations aren't "warped" - they're plain unrealistic.
Why on earth would you think that pine64 was/should be doing all those things?
Pine64 is very clear about what they are doing.


Quote:Changing factories AFTER they messed up is not a "Plan B". That's being reactive, whereas I'm saying Pine64 could and should have been proactive. For example, knowing they won't have access to the factory to test the devices before shipment, they should've planned to test them somewhere else instead. Basically, do what Pine64 eventually did, but for the whole production run and not just the second half of it.

This is starting to be repetitive. Person with the longest breath wins:
Either you become part of the community and do a better job or you explain what it was made you think anyone would be doing that for you.

Quote:Or have a smaller production run. And before you say anything about manufacturing cost, somehow Pine's previous production runs were smaller than the last one, and they still managed to make the ends meet. Or, failing that, raise the prices, maybe even make a little bit of profit and use it to rent a warehouse to perform an independent QA, or hire more support agents...

What kind of person are you? An investor? :-D
How do you know there was enough money to do all that?

Quote:Or, you know, do the responsible thing: analyze the risks involved, see how many things could go wrong, and postpone the production run altogether. Somehow everyone keeps forgetting that's also an option.

You're still throwing around asumptions
Are you saying there were clear signs for a failure in production that would've allowed for that decision to be made?
Maybe not an investor. A fortune-teller?


Quote:Pine's excuse for lack of support is their lack of staff to provide said support. They knew their production run is going to be much bigger, they could've planned for this and hired more staff. To hire more staff they could've raised prices. Yet they did nothing.

This is a community service. So you're a volunteer ready to answer all those support mails?

Quote:
Quote:I'm sorry, I made the assumptions that you would be mentally capable of connecting the dots.



The fact that you're crossing the line and making this personal by implying that I disagree with your position because my mental capabilities are somehow inferior to yours doesn't make you look good, or make me want to continue this discussion with you. So this will be my last response to your comments.

You came in here throwing accusations at people working for you for practically free.
Pine64 isn't aiming to make profits, remember?
Don't be so suprised about the retaliations after 4 pages of.. well let's just stick with "troublemaking".

If you got nothing substantial to say, i recommend you lay low for a while and not make things worse for you.

hoping for the next post to be less frustrating,
kind regards
  Reply
#43
@yogo1212 "Thank you" !

Now can we please get back to discussing this months "updates" ?
      LINUX = CHOICES
         **BCnAZ**
               Idea
   Donate to $upport
your favorite OS Team
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#44
(07-26-2020, 03:16 PM)yogo121 Wrote: You came in here throwing accusations at people working for you for practically free.
Pine64 isn't aiming to make profits, remember?
Don't be so suprised about the retaliations after 4 pages of.. well let's just stick with "troublemaking".

hoping for the next post to be less frustrating,
kind regards

Oh, please, let's cut this BS. Pine64 is a business and not a charity and $200 is not "practically free". And the fact that Pine decided to sell their products at their current prices is not their client's problem.

Quote:If any process need to be implemented, it's probably that customers should be asked explicitly to confirm that they understand what pine64 will and will not do for them.

Now that is a decent idea. A warning, saying something along the lines of "We can't guarantee the device you're buying is going to be defect-free or fully functional. In case you do get a defective device, you might have to wait several months for a warranty service". That would at least be honest. After such a warning you'd finally be justified in saying that unhappy customers "should've known what they were buying".


Quote:If you got nothing substantial to say, i recommend you lay low for a while and not make things worse for you.

Everyone keeps saying they can understand I'm frustrated. But, unlike the previous guy/gal or you, I've actually kept the conversation civil and never insulted anyone personally, despite my frustration. Yet first, a community member tries to insult me, and now you, another community member, are trying to mock me instead of arguing my points? Well, that would certainly change my mind and convince me to become a part of the community. /S

But alright, I'll bite. Worse how, exactly? Ban my forum account? I don't believe I've broken any of this forum's rules, but they could go right ahead, it would only prove my point. Refuse to sell me another device? They certainly could, but If it wasn't clear yet, I won't be buying anything else from Pine. Or maybe Pine is going to ignore a Paypal dispute? They could try, but I doubt it's going to work well for them.

So, maybe you should heed your own advice, lay low for a while, and don't make yourself look worse than you already do?
  Reply
#45
(07-26-2020, 08:49 PM)Jazzband Wrote: Oh, please, let's cut this BS. Pine64 is a business and not a charity and $200 is not "practically free".

Not all business have to work in the same way. I'll re-phrase what i wanted to say about the "practically free" part:
The prices on the pine64 store are modelled in a way that it pays for the unavoidable costs. You basically pay only for parts, assembly, and logistics.
The work that goes in designing the products and organising assembly and delivery is done by the community and/or for the community.
Every now and then we read that pine64 suffers financial losses to be able to keep the price low or because shipping became more expensive.

There are already clunky red disclaimers on store pages:
>> "we are offering the PinePhone at this price as a community service" <<
How can you look past that?

"Community service" is how pine64 describes their work.
In that cases: a phone for people who want to advance Linux phones.
What makes you believe that it was anything else?
Honestly. You keep insisting that pine64 should be doing this or that - what leaves you with the impression that they would be doing so?

Quote:And the fact that Pine decided to sell their products at their current prices is not their client's problem.

Pine64 is transparent about their price policy. That means customers also judge in advance what they can or can not expect.
If client doesn't do that - it really is the clients problem.

Quote:Now that is a decent idea. A warning, saying something along the lines of "We can't guarantee the device you're buying is going to be defect-free or fully functional. In case you do get a defective device, you might have to wait several months for a warranty service". That would at least be honest. After such a warning you'd finally be justified in saying that unhappy customers "should've known what they were buying".

I'm glad you agree. I'm sad that it should be necessary.


[quote pid='73150' dateline='1595818185']
Everyone keeps saying they can understand I'm frustrated. But, unlike the previous guy/gal or you, I've actually kept the conversation civil and never insulted anyone personally, despite my frustration. Yet first, a community member tries to insult me, and now you, another community member, are trying to mock me instead of arguing my points? Well, that would certainly change my mind and convince me to become a part of the community. /S
[/quote]

Right from the first post (and you made the first post) you insinuate that pine64 is being careless and - in a way - dumb - for making 'obvious mistakes'.
And you go on and on and on and on and expect that everyone just takes it from you.
With every one of your posts, the perceived probability of you being a deliberate troll goes up.
Insulting a troll usually doesn't work, which is why i was belittleing you - slightly better chance of success.

Go check my last post.
The things you demand from pine64 in order to improve your situation don't align with the company goals.
Your arguments build on assumptions about the nature of the product or the profitability of the company.
I did argue your points. Granted, i did also mock you. But i did argue your points. Paragraph by paragraph.
Did i miss something?



Quote:But alright, I'll bite. Worse how, exactly? Ban my forum account? I don't believe I've broken any of this forum's rules, but they could go right ahead, it would only prove my point. Refuse to sell me another device? They certainly could, but If it wasn't clear yet, I won't be buying anything else from Pine. Or maybe Pine is going to ignore a Paypal dispute? They could try, but I doubt it's going to work well for them.

EDIT: I was trying to imply that continuing in this argument wasn't going to be glorious. You "bit" as you've said. You're here for the glory.

Why are you still here?
You've increased the costs of operation because of your lousy and uninformed decision - and by that the store costs for everyone else involved.
Great work. Job done. Be proud of yourself. Now get lost.
What can you possibly hope to achieve here?


Quote:So, maybe you should heed your own advice, lay low for a while, and don't make yourself look worse than you already do?

As i've said: I know how this works: Person with the longest breath wins.
But for the sake of this thread we should go somewhere else with this.
  Reply
#46
(07-16-2020, 04:56 PM)nicolai Wrote: Hi, I was wondering if the dock is going to be open hardware the same way your others products are ? Smile

noce question!

I would also like to know!
  Reply
#47
I just wanted to chime in from a neutral observer point of view. I'm not going to argue the points here, as I think this was already explored sufficiently.

I think _ANY_ personal insults should be kept out of this.
The reality is that there are and have been dissatisfied customers (mostly shipping related?).
I feel Jazzband (although I can see how some posts could be considered "annoying") has indeed been very civil (especially compared with some other people encountering problems),
even despite being attacked by some of the community trying to defend Pine64.

As a community I feel we generally be should try to work with people voicing concerns (obvious trolling/flaming excluded) instead of dismissing their opinions.
We are all in the same boat here (wanting cool hardware) and we shouldn't start fights among ourselves.

From browsing through the forums I have read quite a few posts from people reaching out because they haven't been answered by email after a few weeks.
I think we can agree that this is not ideal.  Granted I can imagine the team getting swamped by messages in the last couple of months for various reasons (mostly logistics I'd wager?). Doing customer service is probably a  thankless task (people who are happy will usually not contact customer service),
so I would like to take the opportunity and thank everyone involved from the pine team for doing a great job.

I'm convinced Pine64 is well aware of problems that occured and have (internally) a "Lessons learned" process and try to do
everything in their power to make the best products/experience for their users/customers possible.


Disclaimer:
I never had a a problem with my orders (got the PBP, PP BH, PP CE and currently waiting on the PineTab - I definitely need to get a PineTime, and a RockPro64 and the cluster and the CUBE and the soldering iron thing and so on :P - Pine64 will make me poor with all these irresistible cool playthings to tinker with!).
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#48
Will the PineCube work with Home Assistant?
  Reply
#49
Going to buy a Pinebook Pro. Wondering what distribution of Linux it comes with, whether I have to download it myself, and the best way to go about ordering the unit. Thanks. I've heard that the computer now comes with Manjero.

I had Debian installed on my current computer, after many years of Ubuntu. I'd rather not have another computer with Debian on it .  . . . . too many problems installing certain programs I use that were easy in the Repository system of Ubuntu. How is Manjero in this regard? Thanks again.
  Reply
#50
(08-03-2020, 03:54 PM)moltogordo Wrote: Going to buy a Pinebook Pro. Wondering what distribution of Linux it comes with, whether I have to download it myself, and the best way to go about ordering the unit. Thanks. I've heard that the computer now comes with Manjero.

I had Debian installed on my current computer, after many years of Ubuntu. I'd rather not have another computer with Debian on it .  . . . . too many problems installing certain programs I use that were easy in the Repository system of Ubuntu. How is Manjero in this regard? Thanks again.

I'm also from the Ubuntu/Debian universe.
Manjaro has an interface to install packages that is really very easy. (Pamac)
Even on the command line it's easy enough.
Sometimes there may be a need to do manual configuration after installation but I've never encountered any problem.

You just have to keep in mind that architecture is in arm 64, you won't necessarily have all the x86_64 applications.
  Reply


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